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Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
 Posted - 21 February 2003 : 03:43:31
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Originally posted by Nathan
Let me try to put some histroical perspective on a couple points.
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Originally posted by bozden
I was thinking that in 20-50 years US will have some problems caused by increasing differences between social classes.
Those differences wax and wane with the economy. Way back before we were even a contry good old Ben Franklin was wineing about this issue. Predicting that America would fall apart because of social and cultural divisions.
If our 227 years as a nation have proven anything about Americans, its proven that we can adapt. We can survive hard times and come out again on the other side.
That reminds me of the Borg 
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Originally posted by bozdenWhen I spoke these issues with the guide (a well educated African American advocate working for government) he accepted the issues and said that the 98% of the country does not deal with large scale issues, read their local news, and leave themselves into the capable hands of the 2% who govern. That 2% must succeed to get the required resources needed.
I'd say those figgures are way off. I would expect closer to 75%(the people who squander their right to vote) - 25%(the people who don't)
Voting is not a measure for it. If you vote, do you believe that you govern? With 2%, I meant who do act in politics as first person. But you don't have many voices/choices around anyway.
But I must admit that %75 that do not vote is way higher than I thought. In a democratic country the percentage of voters must be higher than 50-60%. In the last election we had about 20% who did not vote and this was considered a failure in democracy. The reason was that people were tired of seeing the same faces/parties which did not perform well in the last 40 years and they refused to vote. Actually many of those old parties/politicions got eliminated.
So, what if the figures were opposite? I.e. 75% do vote... Who are these 50%? Don't they have any parties to vote? No ideas/ideals? Or do they just don't care? What would happen if they voted, which voice would be higher? One of the existing two or another one?
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Originally posted by bozdenThey hate the foreign policy you have, the capitalism you exported, your way of living, the power you have, your goals on other parts of the world, etc.
Capitolism American exported? If capitolism is a virus, then we are also victims. Capitolism didn't start in the United States, its actually an import we recieved from Western Europe.
Well, you are right of course. You imported and then started to export . US is where we get the capitalism from (one of the worsest applications). In some ways we are very similar, from nationalism up to the corruption rate  .
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HuwR
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
20604 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 05:35:39
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I think you will find capitalism is a lot older than America.
Since all the anti-war sentiments seem to be aimed at America, and the fact they have no right to do this, they must bide by the UN decisions, what opinion do you have on the fact that Iraq has been flouting the UN' s authority for the last 10 years, it is Iraq who have failed to meat the demands of the UN. and what do they do? they pussy-foot around making more resolutions rather than actually doing anything about it, they are becoming a joke.
Like I said in my previous post, we ignored someone once before, his name was Hitler, and I am sure you all know how that ended.
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VodkaFish
Average Member
USA
654 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 11:53:09
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Too many blame all this on money, I don't believe that is so. I think it is mostly done out of fear. Fear that not only can Iraq produce nasty weapons and have someone crazy enough to use them, but also sadistic enough to pass them on to people wanting to use them. America does not want to have the fear they felt after those attacks a couple of years ago, that is true. As someone who is currently sitting in a building in midtown Manhattan I have to say I'd love to have these fears go away. I'd like to know every time I go to the train that I don't have to worry. It's hard not to notice increased police activity or the military walking about. This is not how it was a few years ago, and I feel that this is being done to calm the worries that are still here knowing that there are people who want to destroy things here.
bozden - to address you "increasing differences in classes" comment - the social and economic classes are closer then they ever were. 20-50 years ago looks only like things can merge more then they have. Things like this take time and people are not patient. If you go in reverse and look at the communities and their differences 20-50 years in the past it's amazing at some of the progress that's been made. |
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mykel_suthertun
Junior Member
USA
227 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 13:18:26
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quote:
Originally posted by HuwR
I think you will find capitalism is a lot older than America.
Since all the anti-war sentiments seem to be aimed at America, and the fact they have no right to do this, they must bide by the UN decisions, what opinion do you have on the fact that Iraq has been flouting the UN' s authority for the last 10 years, it is Iraq who have failed to meat the demands of the UN. and what do they do? they pussy-foot around making more resolutions rather than actually doing anything about it, they are becoming a joke.
Like I said in my previous post, we ignored someone once before, his name was Hitler, and I am sure you all know how that ended.
I agree totally.
It seems that everyone that is against this war is because "war is bad." Well, duh.  I don't want a war either, but don't you think we're past the point of making a perfect resolution? I think that everyone will agree that when this is all over it will not be pretty. Sadaam IS building "weapons of mass destruction" and refuses to admit to it and/or disarm them. Like I said before, do you think he's building those just so he can have fun shooting some squirrels in his back yard? Most likely not. These weapons pose a threat to not only the US, but all of our allies.
I understand that a lot of people living in those surrounding European countries are totally against the war. I probably would too, if it was happening in my backyard. But can't you try to see the bigger picture? If the US does not step in and stop Sadaam immediately, he could very well send a nuke anywhere he wanted and kill thousands of people immediately. Hell, it's not like the US is going to nuke Iraq right after they declare war. All we want to do is remove Sadaam from office. So, why is the US being treated like the enemy?! It baffles me everytime someone says that this war is over oil, or money, or anything else. This is over saving innocent lives, and that is what the US is trying to do. We can't guarantee that no innocent Iraqui civilians would be killed in the process. In fact, the history of war almost guarantees that they will. These are the casualties of war, and unfortunately they can't be helped. But if we step in now before Sadaam has enough power to blast the northern hemisphere off the globe we will be saving millions more lives.
Everyone knows that Sadaam has done wrong in building illegal weapons and refusing to give them up. But what has the US done wrong other than trying to stop him from killing people?
[Heh, sorry that came out a little unorganized. I just spouted everything out as it came to me  .] |
Mike Southerton
Webmaster | Don'tSayDie.com | DriveThe.com |
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HarshReality
Junior Member
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 14:00:43
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It's sad to say, the "For one or for the other" view.. you might not like it but its true. Your either for stopping it or your not for stopping it. Being the negative can be done in alot of ways, sitting idley by and doing nothing hoping the problem goes away is one of them.
The US has always been traeted like the bad guy, I say this not because I am a citizen here but because I see it from an actual neutral stand point, we have donated BILLIONS to helping other countries with food and medical assist but does anybody ask to at least see the check? No, they think we are so great and fail to see the debt and as with everything the one who seems to prosper the most must be dirty. Media plays a terrible role in both sides of things however (I argued with this point with a admin on LHU) in the old days the media was 60-40 Good/Bad you saw a person(s) doing good in the world and theyn you had the bad so you had a balance of humanity to help you see things were not so bad as a whole.
Today however its more like 95-5% Bad/Good killings, robberies, murder and rape and... oh yea, a fireman saved a cat. That in itself is enough to inspire bad feelings. I am certain "S" is capable of doing some good over there, the tragic side is we already have seen the bad he has done.
WAR as a whole is bad, Death of the innocent is bad, but truthfully who is to say what is an "acceptable loss"? It is far wiser to stop the possibility of millions perishing with but a few hundred thousand. Unfortunate that most would allow the greater to be led to the slaughter simply becasue its a little to close to home. I know I have a cousin in the air force I am close to. Dont like the fight but both of us are proud he is willing to make the stand if need be. |
Anti Social Personality |
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sy
Average Member
United Kingdom
638 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 15:27:16
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War is the last step, in this case with Iraq the line is that Saddam has not met the requirements of past requests to stand down and put beyond use his weapons of mass destruction.
If the US, UK and the others pressing for war in Iraq have decided that Saddam has not met these requirements and poses a serious threat to anyone with his chemical or nuclear weapons, then that is justification for the forced destruction of these devices, and a regime change that will prevent this situation from ever arising again in Iraq.
My opinion is that the US, UK are righteous in what they plan, and war can be averted, but we can't wait any longer before some action is taken.
'War IS Peace', a statement from George Orwells 1984. |
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails
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joelnh
Starting Member
25 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 16:30:32
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I think one reason so many people hate or dislike America is that The Politicians always have to stick their nose into Every Countries Business in the World.
I think the US should start to back out of the politics of every country in the world and let them be.
I am not saying we should be isolationist, but take a less 'in-the face' role and stop being the 'worlds police force'.
And I think it's crazy that the US gives money to so many nations, sometimes for very stupid reasons.
The US has to stop giving cash away in what is stated as loans, but when the US goes to see if some of it can be repayed they basically get told they will never see it.
I believe france was one of the nations that refused to pay back cash that was loaned to them.
Any Country that does not payback what was loaned should get shut off, period.
Just like the electric company would do if you stopped paying your bills.
Sadaam does need to be taken out of power.... but there is a better way that just marching in guns blazing.
As someone said before... take him out covertly.
And Back a friendly group in Iraq to take power.
I am from the US and I don't hate anyone of any nationality, race, or religion.
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dayve
Forum Moderator
USA
5820 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 17:01:32
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| Joel, I know this may sound like a pompous statement, but the United States "sticking their nose" in other countries affairs is almost mandatory. As "the" Super Power of the world, we are looked upon for assistance, whether it be financial, humanitarian and unfortunately at times policing the world and trying to correct injustice. I know it makes us appear as bullies, but how would the world look upon us with all of our resources available in abundance if we just sat back and did nothing? If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Again, I don't condone war, but I am a huge advocate of using force when it is necessary to prevent death and destruction is mass proportions in the near future which is what Sadaam is extremely capable of. |
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seven
Senior Member
USA
1037 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 17:11:33
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I'm tired of people saying... "Bush wants war."
For starters, we the people elected him, if we don't like the job he is doing... he's out after 4 years. Iraq is stuck with Saddam until he dies or he is ousted by force. |
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Nathan
Help Moderator
USA
7664 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 18:47:10
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| I hate to say this, but I still don't think Americans elected him. |
 Nathan Bales
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dayve
Forum Moderator
USA
5820 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 19:03:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Nathan
I hate to say this, but I still don't think Americans elected him.
With that said, how do you think Al Gore would have handled this? He supported Bill Clinton when we attacked Iraq during his tour. |
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Nathan
Help Moderator
USA
7664 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 19:28:42
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I can't say. I don't know who Gore would have chosen to put in his cabnet.
However I do think the democrats generally are a little more conservative (not the political since of the word) when it comes to using the military. |
Nathan Bales
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ruirib
Snitz Forums Admin
Portugal
26364 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 19:30:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Nathan
I hate to say this, but I still don't think Americans elected him.
I'm sure I read that there was an independent study on the Florida ballot that concluded that indeed he was the most voted. |
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Nathan
Help Moderator
USA
7664 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 19:33:56
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I've read independant studys that said the opposite. It could be argued forever.
Bottom line is: our voting system sucks and the electorial college is out of date. |
Nathan Bales
CoreBoard | Active Users Download |
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ruirib
Snitz Forums Admin
Portugal
26364 Posts |
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