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drirene
Junior Member
USA
129 Posts |
 Posted - 21 February 2003 : 22:05:25
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I am born and bred in the USA, first generation. My family is from Greece. I'll never forget one day many years ago (20?) when I was in a taxi in Athens. The cabbie, who took a liking to me, told me that he would overlook that I was born in the USA; that I was really a Greek. That puzzled me (as well as annoyed me). Since he liked me, I could not possibly be an American; I had to be a Greek. Duh? Unfortunately, I heard variations of that theme time and time again in Greece.
It was only many years later that I realized how much the Greeks HATE Americans. A cousin visited two summers ago. She became upset when the conversation turned to politics. She told me she didn't want to talk politics because she didn't want to fight with me. When I asked her to please explain why the Greeks hate Americans, all I heard was stuff like we just did what we wanted, we are bullies, etc., along with a littany of left-wing rhetoric. Her tone was hateful!
All I understand is that they feel we have too much power and money and feel free to use it. Kind of like the little guy resenting Bill Gates...
If there are any real Greeks out there, please correct me.
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*Trubble* the Cat & Dr. Irene
http://drirene.com |
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sr_erick
Senior Member
USA
1318 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 22:27:59
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| Bush won fair and square, and I am glad he did. Who knows what kind of foolish stuff our tax dollars would be spent on if Gore would have gotten into office. Just my opinion....I am extremely Republican. |
Erick
Snowmobile Fanatics
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Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 23:37:13
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I am extremely Republican.
Really ? How should we know that? 
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fair and square
I doubt this...
I wish we had a vote application here, to see who voted whom in 2000 and who will change the mind. I think this forum is full of Republicans which does not represent the true percentages.
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 Stop the WAR! |
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Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
Posted - 22 February 2003 : 00:13:23
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quote:
Originally posted by drirene
I am born and bred in the USA, first generation. My family is from Greece. I'll never forget one day many years ago (20?) when I was in a taxi in Athens. The cabbie, who took a liking to me, told me that he would overlook that I was born in the USA; that I was really a Greek. That puzzled me (as well as annoyed me). Since he liked me, I could not possibly be an American; I had to be a Greek. Duh? Unfortunately, I heard variations of that theme time and time again in Greece.
It was only many years later that I realized how much the Greeks HATE Americans. A cousin visited two summers ago. She became upset when the conversation turned to politics. She told me she didn't want to talk politics because she didn't want to fight with me. When I asked her to please explain why the Greeks hate Americans, all I heard was stuff like we just did what we wanted, we are bullies, etc., along with a littany of left-wing rhetoric. Her tone was hateful!
All I understand is that they feel we have too much power and money and feel free to use it. Kind of like the little guy resenting Bill Gates...
If there are any real Greeks out there, please correct me.
drirene, both in Greece and in Turkey, the education systems are anti-imperialist. That is also the main reason that people from both sides hate each other. We *are* very much alike and if you are educated enough you will see the culprit and act against it, otherwise brain-washing does the job.
Unfortunately the %2 ratio I mentioned above is more or less the same in all countries and very few are intelligent and bold enough to say "no, this is wrong".
I think it is extremely important that one can re-checks, re-thinks the reasons to find out if he/she is manipulated or not. It does not differ where you live!
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Stop the WAR! |
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padawan
Junior Member
200 Posts |
Posted - 22 February 2003 : 09:29:44
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Here's a thought...
What would it be like if the so called 'millions of anti-war demonstrators' marched not in their own capitals but in all the cities of Iraq. The goal? to force Saddam to capitulate to UN and to world opinion, to give up his WMD, and avoid Gulf War II with the West.
Do you think he will blink and say okay... the world has given its opinion... I will go ahead and exile myself to Syria or Libya and give peace a chance...
NOT! |
"...be mindful of the SnitzForce..." |
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PeeWee.Inc
Senior Member
United Kingdom
1893 Posts |
Posted - 22 February 2003 : 10:12:36
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quote:
Originally posted by padawan
Here's a thought...
What would it be like if the so called 'millions of anti-war demonstrators' marched not in their own capitals but in all the cities of Iraq. The goal? to force Saddam to capitulate to UN and to world opinion, to give up his WMD, and avoid Gulf War II with the West.
Do you think he will blink and say okay... the world has given its opinion... I will go ahead and exile myself to Syria or Libya and give peace a chance...
NOT!
I think he would... kill them all and then maybe have a cup of tea, seems like the sort of thing he would do to his own ppl, so why not others? |
De Priofundus Calmo Ad Te Damine |
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dayve
Forum Moderator
USA
5820 Posts |
Posted - 22 February 2003 : 12:48:57
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on a lighter side of things....
SEC.STATE Colin Powell was recently approached by an Iraqi newspaper reporter and accusingly asked, "Isn't it true that only 13 percent of young Americans can locate Iraq on a map?" Secretary Powell stopped, turned, and stated "Yes, it's true. But,unfortunately for you, all 13 percent are United States Marines."
this topic was getting so serious, I thought I'd try to sidetrack it a bit. |
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VodkaFish
Average Member
USA
654 Posts |
Posted - 22 February 2003 : 19:05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by bozden
drirene, both in Greece and in Turkey, the education systems are anti-imperialist.
How is the US or any other country currently imperialistic? In fact, compared to European countries, the US is far in comparison in terms of what was "colonized". I've heard many "anti-imperialist" arguments, but introducing democracy to countries is not imperialism IMO. Taking land, colonizing people and forcing your own gov't upon them (not helping start a new one) is imperialism (and the dictionary backs me up on this one). It just seems like such a strong word that I feel is not close to an accurate way to describe another countries policies.quote:
Unfortunately the %2 ratio I mentioned above is more or less the same in all countries and very few are intelligent and bold enough to say "no, this is wrong".
I think it's also due to the fact that many don't care enough to. Not that they aren't strong enough or smart enough, but many just don't want to be involved. Just adding a little to that. |
v ø d k â f ï § h |
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Morten
Junior Member
Denmark
251 Posts |
Posted - 22 February 2003 : 19:13:18
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This is a very difficult issue to deal with - war or not ?
I think its very dangerous to make it something very simpel, its not simpel at all. We all get affected by the way the medias focus on this question. The first victim in a war, or prepering of a war is the truth, it have to be that way or the moral will dissapair as the first dead bodies is seen on televisions around the world. United Nations have made an rapport about the consequenses of a war, they have estimated a loss of lifes that goes into the + 200.000 victims.
This is not a surprise, people get killed in a war. But its very strange that the UN have choisen to keep that repport "STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL" what would be the reason for that ?
http://www.casi.org.uk/info/undocs/war021210.html
I´m not a pacifist, not at all, but at least we schould try do anything else before even thinking of an war. I think that many europeans don´t think that every possible way to desarm Iraq have been done yet, or perhaps more importent; many feel not comfortble with the retoric of Mr. Bush, like he already had this war on Iraq in his plans long long time ago. Colin Powell hits the european retoric much better then Bush and Rumsfield does.
How things are right now, it seems to be much more of a political question then an actual question about the capabilities of Iraq´s military forces, not only for the US administration but also for some of the leaders in Europe, like the Frensh president. The Bush administration have been much to clear on this question, there is no way out of a position promoted that hard, not without loosing face to other contries, and the American people. The same way in Europe, France and Germany have pointed out their opinion much to clear, there is hardly any return of that position without serious damages to Schröder and Jiraq in their contrys. It seems like they have forgotten one of the basic rules in politics - alwayes have an emergency door somewhere to withdraw from positions when needed.
I hope that the question Iraq is solved in a peacefull way - if not - I hope that the war will be quicker then estimated and that the problem Saddam Hussein is solved once and for all.
Morten |
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Nathan
Help Moderator
USA
7664 Posts |
Posted - 22 February 2003 : 19:43:25
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quote:
Originally posted by VodkaFish
How is the US or any other country currently imperialistic? In fact, compared to European countries, the US is far in comparison in terms of what was "colonized". I've heard many "anti-imperialist" arguments, but introducing democracy to countries is not imperialism IMO. Taking land, colonizing people and forcing your own gov't upon them (not helping start a new one) is imperialism (and the dictionary backs me up on this one). It just seems like such a strong word that I feel is not close to an accurate way to describe another countries policies.
Imperalism is definatly the wrong word. Try Globalization. |
 Nathan Bales
CoreBoard | Active Users Download |
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Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
Posted - 22 February 2003 : 19:53:12
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http://www.dictionary.com
im·pe·ri·al·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-pîr--lzm)
n.
1. The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.
2. The system, policies, or practices of such a government.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
imperialism
\Im*pe"ri*al*ism\, n. The policy, practice, or advocacy of seeking, or acquiescing in, the extension of the control, dominion, or empire of a nation, as by the acquirement of new, esp. distant, territory or dependencies, or by the closer union of parts more or less independent of each other for operations of war, copyright, internal commerce, etc.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
imperialism
n 1: a policy of extending your rule over foreign countries 2: a political orientation that advocates imperial interests 3: any instance of aggressive extension of authority
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Edited by - Deleted on 22 February 2003 19:57:38 |
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Nathan
Help Moderator
USA
7664 Posts |
Posted - 22 February 2003 : 21:15:44
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Bozden, those definitions very much back up VodkaFish and my argument.
Were only saying that the enlgish word "imperial" is being used in the wrong context, not that America isn't a global bully.
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1. The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition
American hasn't participated in territorial acquisition since the Treaty of Paris in 1898.
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or by the establishment of economic
Yes, Trans National Corperations do this . . . but TNC's are not synonamous to Americaquote:
and political hegemony over other nations.
An example of this: the Soviat Sattalight nations during the cold war. Does the United States act like that? I see no evidence of it.
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Nathan Bales
CoreBoard | Active Users Download |
Edited by - Nathan on 22 February 2003 22:38:13 |
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mykel_suthertun
Junior Member
USA
227 Posts |
Posted - 22 February 2003 : 23:23:31
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Can someone argue against my posts in this forum? Heh, sorry, but I just want to see what arguments people have against me so I can think about it.
Oh yeah, and dayve, nice story  |
Mike Southerton
Webmaster | Don'tSayDie.com | DriveThe.com |
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Nathan
Help Moderator
USA
7664 Posts |
Posted - 23 February 2003 : 01:17:10
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quote:
Originally posted by mykel_suthertun
Can someone argue against my posts in this forum? Heh, sorry, but I just want to see what arguments people have against me so I can think about it.
An interesting request. I can play devils advocate.
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Originally posted by mykel_suthertun
I know a lot of US citizens that are in favor of war.
Some perhaps, however the pro-war protests have been pretty small and isolated compared to the anti war protests.
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Originally posted by mykel_suthertun
And even though our country has unintentionally caused international problems (and in some cases, taken lives) by sticking its democratic head in other countries business over the years, who can honestly say that the US gets its jollies by harming people?
The Media in this country is big busness, they display what American wants to see because if they don't then FOX will. Therefore, one can theorize that the media focuses on what Americans *like* to see. It seems that they spend a lot more time focusing on Bush and his accusations of Iraq than they do on Jimmy Carter and his Habitat for Humanity.
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Originally posted by mykel_suthertun
Whether you agree with the actions they've taken in every international conflict they've encountered or not, can you agree that the US has always done what THEY think would eventually create peace? Whether we're right or wrong, we want peace.
Yes, selling weapons to everyone in the world including the Sudanese, the Taliban in Afghanistan, and the Israelites. All these actions by the US were intended to create peace.
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Originally posted by mykel_suthertun
But, if this is true, why must Sadaam create weapons capable of (I know it's redundant, but) "mass destruction?"
Because the US has them. Put yourself in Saddam's shoes. You have worked you entire life to get into a position of power in your little corner of the world, and now there is this big superpower on the other side of the world who has decided to manipulate you and kick you out of power. They have weapons of mass destruction, why cant I?
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Originally posted by mykel_suthertun
His citizens are not the enemy,
Then why does he slaughter them?
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Originally posted by mykel_suthertun
Casualties of war are guaranteed; we all know this, but almost always reject it.
Not if we built droid armies 
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Originally posted by mykel_suthertun
Either we attempt to stop Sadaam now and (hopefully) end this issue with minimal casualties, or we take a chance and let him make the first move.
Our own justice system states one is innocent until proven guilty. What has Saddam/Iraq done to us? Ok, so perhaps he has threatened us. What are the repercussions of threatening in the US legal system. Restraining orders, a fine? Perhaps a lawsuit. What could that be translated into in an international system? Sanctions?
Also, the American justice system requires a trial by a jury of peers. Lets see, who would Iraq’s peers be? How about the other nations of the world? The UN? IT seems to me that the UN jury hasn’t found Iraq guilty of anything worth a regime change.
If we go out and take a ‘first strike’ stance, then what’s that going to show the rest of the world? Is Pakistan going to strike India before it’s too late? Is Taiwan going to strike China? What about Russia and Chechnya, Israel and Palestine, North and South Sudan. I mean, we are the only remaining super power. We should set a peaceful example for the rest of the world to follow.
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Originally posted by mykel_suthertun
But while our own country is screaming "no war" at our president, Sadaam is building nuclear weapons.
Bush has nuclear weapons. What gives Bush the right to have them and Saddam not? You might say that Bush isn't threatening the world, but he sure seems to be threatening Iraq and NK.
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Originally posted by mykel_suthertun Do you think he's building these so that he can shoot some squirrels in his back yard? Unlikely.
I don’t know, the squirrels around Seattle seem quite militant. (That’s kind of an inside joke at my school)
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Originally posted by mykel_suthertun
Frankly, I would love to see if the US protestors would pick up their anti-war picket signs again after Saddam has removed Washington D.C. from the Earth.
I'm sure some would. If everyone took and eye for an eye then we would all be blind. Turn the other cheek.
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Originally posted by mykel_suthertun
But people still accuse the US of threatening war too quickly. But what have the same people to say about Saddam's arsenal? Should we just slap him on the wrist and move on? It's been proven that he has illegal weapons and that he is making no attempt to disarm them.
How are Saddam’s weapons any more illegal than our own? It seems to me that if one nation (US) should be allowed to develop/build/store/arm nuclear weapons then any country should.
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Originally posted by mykel_suthertun
Is this not an act of preparing for war? This is not something to be taken lightly.
Why do we have our weapons? Did we build all those H-Bombs preparing for war? Of coarse we did. Did we ever come to war? Thankfully no.
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Originally posted by mykel_suthertun
The last time we've taken things too lightly, planes crashed and people died.
It was our own fault for not have proper security measures. Beyond that, there was nothing we could have done in advance
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Originally posted by mykel_suthertun
The US citizens took this huge blow to the head and said, "something has to be done." So, their officials-elect have strengthened their defense and have taken nothing lightly. And now they are being critized for it? Come on. What else must happen to the United States in order for these protestors to say, "okay, that's enough" and demand a solution?
Well now, this is a very interesting statement. Al Queda attacked the United States, not Iraq. Americans said “something has to be done about Osama” and Bush sias “Ok, I’ll go deal with Saddam.” Saddam != Osama That’s why the American people are protesting. When Saddam flies airplanes into the New York skyline, then more Americans will support war.
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Nathan Bales
CoreBoard | Active Users Download |
Edited by - Nathan on 23 February 2003 01:19:15 |
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drirene
Junior Member
USA
129 Posts |
Posted - 23 February 2003 : 01:41:18
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This is a fascinating thread. I agree with Bozden that the US is imperialist and that this board is slanted because of the high percentage of US posters, many with Republican sentiments (including myself) among them. Living some 50 miles from Ground Zero, I especially agree with Mykel that something must be done.
Yet I also agree with Bozden that fear is manipulating my desire to get Sadaam et al out of the way. But I know too that if I were Turkish, I would have a very deep dread regarding what an Iraqi war would do to my country.
I see America as a (sometimes bumbling) do-gooder who in the name of peace and civil rights imposes democracy and goes overboard paying off whomever to achieve it's aim. (Like trying to pay off Turkey now.) Just because I think democracy is The Best however doesn't give me the ethical right to impose it on anybody else. So I think we are bullies, albeit well-meaning ones. I am certain I would hate US policy too if I were foreign.
So I can't really blame those who demonstrate against us, though I see their hatred as short-sighted (Bozden's 2%).
The real problem in my opinion is not the polarization over war vs. peace. That's a pseudo issue. The problem is what do you do with a guy who is a dangerous ego maniac! Appeasement doesn't work and war is horrible.
Sometimes I think maybe we need to use his techniques: to find a way to disarm him by playing his mind games - and do it better than he does.
The only way I can see this happening is for world opinion to be united against him; to be ready to go to war, but to not have to because he backs down. Unfortunately, the US is too distrusted to lead such a bluff. The irony is that if the US was trusted, Sadaam would very likely back down.
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*Trubble* the Cat & Dr. Irene
http://drirene.com |
Edited by - drirene on 23 February 2003 01:55:03 |
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