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Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
 Posted - 20 February 2003 : 22:14:51
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quote:
If you're not willing to accept that people think differently, why post?
I do believe in freedom to speak, I devoted my life to these or the like. Do you?
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Do you want to impose your view on others?
This is what politics is. Isn't it?
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Can't you recognize any value to other people's thoughts if they disagree with you?
We are talking about war, killing innocent people! How can one find value in that? Is refusing discussion forbidden here? Or what?
I also don't understand why you are pushing me. It is not me what we talk about. It is the United States gývernment's criminal activities and all the suffer they cause all around the world, this time to Iraqis and to Turkey.
I'll try to calm down. I'm afraid I'm too much angry today! I cannot belive these crazy things happen.
I refuse to answer any personal attacks hereafter.
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Nathan
Help Moderator
USA
7664 Posts |
Posted - 20 February 2003 : 22:15:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Nikkol
The problem with thinking that way is that we all live on the same planet.
Ahh yes, but its a much bigger planet than our technology would have us believe it is.
Be careful how quickly you believe what people, media, and governments tell you is truth. Also check yourself to see if you have any lingering biases that influance how you process and comprehend what you are told. Finally, seek out another point of view and try to apply your values to their current state of being.
Or choose to be ignorant. (I don't mean that in a bad way.) |
 Nathan Bales
CoreBoard | Active Users Download |
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Nikkol
Forum Moderator
USA
6907 Posts |
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Nathan
Help Moderator
USA
7664 Posts |
Posted - 20 February 2003 : 22:34:27
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We cant act like we own the world either.
<edit value="Since it seems I cannot keep my opinions out of this, I think I'm going to abstain from further comments here.  Frustrating!"/> |
Nathan Bales
CoreBoard | Active Users Download |
Edited by - Nathan on 20 February 2003 22:48:06 |
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ruirib
Snitz Forums Admin
Portugal
26364 Posts |
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Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
Posted - 20 February 2003 : 22:47:48
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quote:
Originally posted by ruirib
Bozden, I respect you too much to keep answering you. You do need to calm down.
So do I 
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GauravBhabu
Advanced Member
4288 Posts |
Posted - 20 February 2003 : 23:16:04
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Love and Peace - We All Want. No One Wants War. Yet Wars had happened since the times unknown.
The question is why?
Are we all,
1. Doing What We Want to Do?
2. Not Doing What We Do Not Want to Do?
3. Telling What We Do Not Want to Do?
4. Not Telling What We Want to Do?
If we are Doing What We do Not Want To Do and Telling What We Do Not Want to Do, Who are we deceiving? |
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Doug G
Support Moderator
USA
6493 Posts |
Posted - 20 February 2003 : 23:48:01
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Most of you youngsters don't remember the "duck and cover" drills in elementary schools. This was the defense drill in case of nuclear attack.
Now, decades later, we are putting first strike nukes on the table as an acceptable US foreign policy. I think that's wrong.
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Doug G
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Computer history and help at www.dougscode.com |
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Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
Posted - 20 February 2003 : 23:50:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Nikkol
forget the US for a moment ... what are your thoughts about Sadaam?
Nikkol, this is what Saddam did in Halepce to Kurds back in 1988:
 Do you remember this one?
How can a man think of a man who ordered this? Should we kill people that killed the others?
Would you kill somebody?
PS: Roumours say that US had knowledge of this attack before it happenedEnglish translation from La Monde diplomatique
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GauravBhabu
Advanced Member
4288 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 00:13:13
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| nukes? Why are they made? Is it a means of Defense or Attack? How many countries have used the nukes to kill innocent people? |
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VodkaFish
Average Member
USA
654 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 00:28:13
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quote:
Originally posted by bozden
About the hatred: Yes, they feel it. But I think it is mutual. Action leads reaction, defect leads effect. This is why US must start to think about what is going on and why.
Hi Bozden, thanx for answering. While I do not agree with many of your opinions, I appreciate your passion, I'll definitely give you that. About this comment I quoted, I can't say I agree with you and here's why: the reason I started this, other then to hopefully provoke interesting discussion is I was curious as to other public's opinions as a group. I don't think this hatred is mutual. From what it seems here no one is going to hate a citizen from another country here, even if it's one that's not currently aligned with the US; but I feel like if I went over to another country now I would be hated simply based upon the fact that I am American (more then before that is, as the US is rarely likeed). Perhaps I'm wrong, and that's part of what I am trying to figure out.
That article you posted reflects nothing like how it is over here. No one is campaigning for war and I haven't seen anyone rip down a "Peace" sign (and that fake dialog is entertainment more then some attempt at journalism). I also don't think Bush is doing any of this to appease the citizens of this country. I'm not saying he has some slippery agenda - but I don't think he's using this war to retain his Presidency. |
v ø d k â f ï § h |
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sr_erick
Senior Member
USA
1318 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 00:43:07
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| I think most of the country does not want to go to war, but some things are inevitable. Iraq is a continuing threat to the ENTIRE world, not just the US. I think what the US is doing, is good. We are trying to protect the rest of the world. We all know what Iraq is capable of, and we do not want to see things as bad as September 11th or worse happen again...it just isn't right. I think Bush is a good leader, and is going the right direction. I know I sure don't want a nuclear weapon knocking on my door, that's why I think not just Iraq, but the entire world should rid themsleves of them. |
Erick
Snowmobile Fanatics
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Edited by - sr_erick on 21 February 2003 00:46:33 |
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Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 02:14:39
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Thanks for your comments VodkaFish. I write this not only to you, others can also benefit :)
I'm more than passionate on this topic because it matters here more than it does in US. More than 90% of Turkish citizens are against war, because it is not considered legitimate and because it is not our war. (Is it yours?) The only ones who are for the war are those who want to profit from them, mainly capitalists who want to have some reconstruction work in Iraq and those who think we can get profit from the oil areas. The military also doesn't want to involve, but in case it starts, most people think we must be there to protect our land.
We suffered too much from the last Gulf War and don't want any more trouble. Turkey's foreign depths raised from 20 Billion USD to 130 Billon USD in the last 15 years. Do you know what happened in between? The economic impact of 1991 Gulf War in the last 12 years equals 100 Billion Dollars. The earthquake near Istanbul in 1999 caused another 20... Believe it or not, my 10 months old daughter has born with 2.100 $ dept, increased to $2.700 in the meantime... This is the per capita we owe. The unemployment raised over 20%, even a well educated people cannot find a job. This is mainly what corrupt capitalism and Gulf War did to us. This added to non-democratic issues (army taking government) we lived in 1960, 1971 and 1980. Then the Kurd war started and killed 30.000 people and drained most of our resources. All went to guns. Now everything started again: The Aegean Islands and Cyprus crisis with Greece (a complete nonsense again) and now the Iraq issue.
I have my brother in the army and he will most probably go to south-east after he finishes the education part next month. He will command a team of four tanks. Do you know against whom? Possibly against Kurds in North Iraq, Iran (just read 5000 entered Iraq from Iran and 7000 additional Turkish soldiers followed them) AND against US army, just in case something wrong happens (can you believe this). The Kurds did suffer too much for decades. He used to be like me, but when I last phoned him, I felt the traces of nationalist/militarist brain-washing.
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I was curious as to other public's opinions as a group
Although the topic says "International", the problem here is most percentage is in US, and other western countries. Very few from the third world. So most voices will sound from US.
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I don't think this hatred is mutual.
It depends on the definition of hatred. I think the polarization is enough. Even in this topic I can see that: "Either you are with Bush or you are with Saddam". No, I'm not!
I'm afraid US citizens got easily manipulated after Ground Zero. Some blame on media, but who feeds media? The multi-national firms AND the government. They just show what is offered, less free voices. Yesterday I saw on TV that a boy got thrown out of the school (nearly) because he wear a T-Shirt that says "Stop the Criminal". Your country is at least anti-democratic as ours.
This is actually what I examined in my 25 days visit in year 2000 (DC, LA, Seattle, Rapid City/S.Dakota, Atlanta). I've been invited/funded by US government and this was just before the elections. I had great opportunity to examine the social structure and talk to people. You really had problems, larger than I thought. [Interesting enough I also had the chance to see CNN top news (perhaps you remember): people complaining because of the slight rise in oil prices. Man you get that stuff into your cars 4 times cheaper than we do here, and your average income is far more higher than we have here. You complain about the taxes? 70% of the oil price is tax here! Being spent on arms we buy from you.] But what would happen when you loose your cars, your house, your job if the economic crisis got deeper? Would the diverse/community based nature of your country handle this? These were my thoughts just after the visit. I was thinking about how the US Government would handle the situation and prevent further problems in your "USA Today addicted" communities. I was thinking that in 20-50 years US will have some problems caused by increasing differences between social classes. You need to visit McDonalds' at night, in Turkey they are considered luxury and you get very well treated. When I spoke these issues with the guide (a well educated African American advocate working for government) he accepted the issues and said that the 98% of the country does not deal with large scale issues, read their local news, and leave themselves into the capable hands of the 2% who govern. That 2% must succeed to get the required resources needed.
Then suddenly, on September 11th, the nation got re-joined and the plan started to run.
Well, why did I tell these? That's because I do believe that "discrimination" and "otherization" among people is wrong. Every person has to be examined separately with his/her social status and the past. But there are some special cases, like people who are against Human Rights, racists, etc. I DO "otherize" them.
So, I was wrong by saying "they hate", I was just generalizing. I could be among them, but I do not have any bad feelings for anybody (except your current 2%). Likewise nobody should "otherize" you in person. I'm also sure that we could be very good friends with any of you if we had the chance to meet in real life. But beware; I can be quite boring with this stuff .
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About this comment I quoted, I can't say I agree with you
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It seemed almost more anti-American and anti-Semetic at times rather then anti-war.
Listen to this: They do not hate US citizens. They hate the foreign policy you have, the capitalism you exported, your way of living, the power you have, your goals on other parts of the world, etc. And hate gives birth for other hatred for sure. Do you want to abandon weapons? Then abandon your weapons (you do have the largest army and a good stock of mass-murder weapons including chemical and biological ones), otherwise they will be against you and you will become against "others". The more problems/strikes/protests you get, the more power you must use and this will lead to total chaos. Look, what happened after September 11th! If you (we!) don't take this wave under control all of us will be in trouble just because of the manipulation of that 2%...
Most of you say that the war is not stoppable. You are wrong! Act against it and join to one of the non-radical groups. War is not a good thing and it is NOT NEEDED.
I don't want my children to see the WW3 ! You would not like it either…
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mykel_suthertun
Junior Member
USA
227 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 02:14:56
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| I know a lot of US citizens that are in favor of war. However, I don't know of a single U.S. citizen that wants go to war just so that they can have the taste of blood on their lips. George Bush included. It seems that most people against the war believe that the US is a war-starven machine that only wants to create chaos in the world. And even though our country has unintentionally caused international problems (and in some cases, taken lives) by sticking its democratic head in other countries business over the years, who can honestly say that the US gets its jollies by harming people? Whether you agree with the actions they've taken in every international conflict they've encountered or not, can you agree that the US has always done what THEY think would eventually create peace? Whether we're right or wrong, we want peace. And "nobody wants war;" that has been established time and time again. But, if this is true, why must Sadaam create weapons capable of (I know it's redundant, but) "mass destruction?" His citizens are not the enemy, and everyone can see that a war that would almost certainly endanger them. But how long is it until he kills them himself? Has he not done it before? Casualties of war are guaranteed; we all know this, but almost always reject it. We have to weigh the consequences. At this point, I doubt there is a solution to the problem that isn't flawed in some way. Either we attempt to stop Sadaam now and (hopefully) end this issue with minimal casualties, or we take a chance and let him make the first move. But while our own country is screaming "no war" at our president, Sadaam is building nuclear weapons. Do you think he's building these so that he can shoot some squirrels in his back yard? Unlikely. Frankly, I would love to see if the US protestors would pick up their anti-war picket signs again after Sadaam has removed Washington D.C. from the Earth. But people still accuse the US of threatening war too quickly. But what have the same people to say about Sadaam's arsenal? Should we just slap him on the wrist and move on? It's been proven that he has illegal weapons and that he is making no attempt to disarm them. Is this not an act of preparing for war? This is not something to be taken lightly. The last time we've taken things too lightly, planes crashed and people died. The US citizens took this huge blow to the head and said, "something has to be done." So, their officials-elect have strengthened their defense and have taken nothing lightly. And now they are being critized for it? Come on. What else must happen to the United States in order for these protestors to say, "okay, that's enough" and demand a solution? |
Mike Southerton
Webmaster | Don'tSayDie.com | DriveThe.com |
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Nathan
Help Moderator
USA
7664 Posts |
Posted - 21 February 2003 : 03:16:58
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Let me try to put some histroical perspective on a couple points.
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Originally posted by bozden
I was thinking that in 20-50 years US will have some problems caused by increasing differences between social classes.
Those differences wax and wane with the economy. Way back before we were even a contry good old Ben Franklin was wineing about this issue. Predicting that America would fall apart because of social and cultural divisions.
If our 227 years as a nation have proven anything about Americans, its proven that we can adapt. We can survive hard times and come out again on the other side.
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Originally posted by bozdenWhen I spoke these issues with the guide (a well educated African American advocate working for government) he accepted the issues and said that the 98% of the country does not deal with large scale issues, read their local news, and leave themselves into the capable hands of the 2% who govern. That 2% must succeed to get the required resources needed.
I'd say those figgures are way off. I would expect closer to 75%(the people who squander their right to vote) - 25%(the people who don't)
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Originally posted by bozdenThey hate the foreign policy you have, the capitalism you exported, your way of living, the power you have, your goals on other parts of the world, etc.
Capitolism American exported? If capitolism is a virus, then we are also victims. Capitolism didn't start in the United States, its actually an import we recieved from Western Europe. |
Nathan Bales
CoreBoard | Active Users Download |
Edited by - Nathan on 21 February 2003 03:19:30 |
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