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Alfred
Senior Member
USA
1527 Posts |
 Posted - 25 March 2003 : 00:41:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Nathan
I'm sure the emergency crews (civilians) who responded to that first blast appriciated the cruise missles which were sent in to "clean up."
They were targeting Saddam. But at what cost? A 2000 pound bomb is a 2000 pound bomb, its going to take out more than one building in the dence urban environment of Bagdad. And those wonderful cleanup cruse missles are only accurate to rougly 10 meters, that makes a huge difference if your trying to pick a tiny house out of a city. "Oops! The GPS didn't adjust for that tree"
So, Nathan - what are you trying to say with all this?
That your country has the "bad" guys, and the others are the "good" guys?
Or that we are not doing enough to make it absolutely perfect and no one ever gets hurt?
Can you?
Would others - particularly our enemies - go to so much trouble to prevent lateral damage?
What is your solution?
Oh, God.
It becomes tiring to have to repeat these points again and again.
They are so obvious to any thinking observer. |
Alfred
The Battle Group
CREDO
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bjlt
Senior Member
1144 Posts |
Posted - 25 March 2003 : 00:49:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Alfred
Two different points: - 1. You are talking about an era during which colonialism was every major nation's aspiration. This happened over 250 years ago, and the US has matured from that.
- 2. The 2000 years old problem of finding a homeland for the Jews has nothing to do with our current challenge, although - as usual - the US is trying to be the good guys there as well and find a solution for it.
well, let me say it this way.
When I refer to the reasons of 911, I didn't mean the one who planed and did it, but many people out there who, though hate such activities and show sympathy to the innocent people lost their lives, while do think about why there are so many people dislike what the US has done, and what's wrong with the world now that have made such things happen.
Do Americans ever wonder why "they are always doing the right thing" yet they are hated by so many people?
Again, I can understand the reaction of a politician and American people there, however, I do think it's better, to all people in the world, think about it this way.
What the reasons the terrorits said,
why do people dislike American,
what problem we have in the world,
1. .... this is misunderstanding
2..... this is due to propaganda and the propaganda is caused by ...
3... religious ......
4... different views on ....
5... this is a problem, but ....
6... this is a problem and we are working on it, yet.....
7... oops, that's what we haven't paid enought attention to, and the plan is...
.......
I know it's complicated but only in this way we can help to make the world better.
About the two points you mentioned, I think we take different views on it.
First, yes the US has matured from it, and it's also what you've said in the posts here all the time such as Americans spent so much money/energy to care about the cilivilans. Sure they are, otherwise it's no difference with the terrorists.
Yes it's happened in the dark colonialism era, still I myself think what Canada has done about the native Americans is right and far more better, and that has solved the problem for Candada. This is related to the topic here for the unfairness other people see. Yes it's the past, yes that's the fact and we have to admit it or nothing much we can change, yes the US has matured and it does have freed people and it's one of the most advanced system, still, many many people, though they admit the US is a country for the people and all the good things they do not have in their own ones, do feel the unfairness and selfishness of the US not only in his history, but also what it's done recently and it's doing now, and isreali is one of it.
Even if one is trying to do the right thing all the time, he may make wrong decisions, he may do it in a wrong way, and that could lead to terrible results. Not to mention on one can always do the right thing. Such attitude is a reason why Americans are hated.
I see the attitude in this post
quote:
We prefer our way of finding them to the way you seem to imply.
Your way would be VERY regretful for all of us.
I don't say it's wrong but it's something causing the trouble.
If we agree on someting it is, if we can't agree on it I'm right or I'll do what I think is right. That's what the US administration has done for many years to UN, yes it may be for the best interests of the American people but it's causing trouble to other people, and later it will be trouble for the US agian, a bad cycle.
Taking the current war for example, I don't think no war should ever been brought out for it if nessesary, but definately it's not a good choice to do it now in this way.
No enough evidence to show the whole world that Iraq is a threat, even if it is, we have UN and international laws. UN and the current system may need to be reformed a lot but I prefer the US, the only super power now, to pay respect to it and obey the international laws, while lead the reform needed, and do things more respectfully. This can ease the situation a lot, less unfairness and supremacy see by other nations, be are real leader of the world and that's how can freedom of mankind be archieved more easily if that's what the US government and people really want.
For the current war, if we have the authorization from UN it would be much differnet, less investment, less loss of life from both sides and no new hatred created.
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Edited by - bjlt on 25 March 2003 01:07:07 |
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bjlt
Senior Member
1144 Posts |
Posted - 25 March 2003 : 00:54:53
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and don't forget humanity. it might seem stupid but no one want others to point to his face and say you are wrong, do it my way. esp for people in the old continent where they have ancient civilization, glorious time in the history. I know it's stupid but please acknowledge it, otherwise there are troubles even you are trying to do the right things.
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Edited by - bjlt on 25 March 2003 00:56:04 |
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bjlt
Senior Member
1144 Posts |
Posted - 25 March 2003 : 01:00:15
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so no one here pays attention to the fact that without an authorization from UN, technically such a war is an invasion in terms of international law? If you have a law in your country that is out dated or not proper do you change it first or just ignore it?
you might be always trying to do the right things, but you may be wrong, you may do it in a wrong way, or simply interpreted by others wrong, all may lead to bad results. |
Edited by - bjlt on 25 March 2003 01:01:29 |
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Doug G
Support Moderator
USA
6493 Posts |
Posted - 25 March 2003 : 01:45:38
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quote:
Oh, God.
It becomes tiring to have to repeat these points again and again.
They are so obvious to any thinking observer.
Not to pick on you Albert Alfred  , but this is the kind of comment that is not necessary and can be inflammatory.
The implication here is a) the writer has the ability to discern who can think and who can't, b) that the writer is a thinking observer, and c) that whoever doesn't agree with the writer is not a thinking observer.
Nathan's points are obvious too, and he is most certainly a thinking observer :) There are many other thinking observers who have a different view of this war. The leaders of both of the US neighboring countries, the governments of countries representing about 5/6 of the world's population, 100+ million Americans (if you believe polls) and the Pope. This is not bad company to keep imho.
Oh, and someone posted earlier that most of the Arab world supports the US. Today the Arab league that just condemned the war and called for an emergency UN security council meeting, and if not that a full UN meeting.
There is little doubt that the US can win the military war. However I have grave doubts about the long-term ramifications of our actions.
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Doug G
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Computer history and help at www.dougscode.com |
Edited by - Doug G on 25 March 2003 10:59:56 |
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Alfred
Senior Member
USA
1527 Posts |
Posted - 25 March 2003 : 02:47:54
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quote:
For the current war, if we have the authorization from UN it would be much differnet, less investment, less loss of life from both sides and no new hatred created.
Are you ignoring the unanimous UN resolution authorizing "all means to enforce" etc.?
The fact that some UN members have forgotten about it and got cold feet does not make it invalid.
The only resolutions by the UN on this Iraqi problem over the last 12 years were ALL against Saddam.
And there were a great number of them.
Not a single resolution was voted on which was ignored by the US.
The fact that Saddam was able to string the world along for another 12 years only attests to his deceptive skills, and gave him - like Hitler between the wars - a chance to rearm.
Of course we know by now the reasons for at least two of the main opposing nations - France and Russia.
The Russian motive we just found out in the last few days.
Summarizing, it just strikes me as odd that every ghastly deed of our enemy is overlooked, and the reason for it explained by comparatively insignificant imperfections on the American side.
Yes, we make mistakes, just like every human being.
But no, we are not evil like our current enemies.
And I don't even want to begin to go into the treatment of POWs, who are tortured by the Iraqis while at the same time American field surgeons are doing their best to save their prisoners' lives.
As to the hatred of everything American by some people, I have an intuitive feeling for some of the cause.
It may be similar to the hatred that some individuals harbor against other individuals who are perceived by them to be better in one respect or another.
This would be irrational to secure and confident individuals, but is quite common in insecure ones.
It seems to have some parallel in the masses. |
Alfred
The Battle Group
CREDO
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bjlt
Senior Member
1144 Posts |
Posted - 25 March 2003 : 03:01:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Alfred
quote:
For the current war, if we have the authorization from UN it would be much differnet, less investment, less loss of life from both sides and no new hatred created.
Are you ignoring the unanimous UN resolution authorizing "all means to enforce" etc.?
The fact that some UN members have forgotten about it and got cold feet does not make it invalid.
Wow, didn't know a war so many nations are against is really authorised, and one can act first then to find a proving. |
Edited by - bjlt on 25 March 2003 03:02:12 |
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Alfred
Senior Member
USA
1527 Posts |
Posted - 25 March 2003 : 03:11:55
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quote:
Not to pick on you Albert
at least one thing you may not have observed - my name isn't Albert.
And yes, at times I can get somewhat condescending or sarcastic when I see particularly immature, irrelative or impertinent arguments, but you will never find me directing this judgment at any individual.
You see, I was not brainwashed by current American upbringing into accepting the notion that everyone is equally qualified.
If someone feels that "the shoe fits" - that is another matter, and his own problem. |
Alfred
The Battle Group
CREDO
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bjlt
Senior Member
1144 Posts |
Posted - 25 March 2003 : 03:13:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Alfred
Yes, we make mistakes, just like every human being.
But no, we are not evil like our current enemies.
That could be worse than an evil. Evil, still mankind, knows all people are against him and may feel fear. while one who's doing the wrong but believe he's right could make more harm, esp one with super power. That has hapened in our history and the result is horrible, and people have thought he was an evil indeed. I believe he must have thought most of the time when he's alive that he'd been great and had been doing all the greatest things for the people.
No I don't mean the US, as the only super power now, should not pay attention to the progress of mankind, but I do think the way it's doing it need to be improved, much improved. |
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Alfred
Senior Member
USA
1527 Posts |
Posted - 25 March 2003 : 03:15:17
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quote:
Wow, didn't know a war so many nations are against is really authorised, and one can act first then to find a proving.
Now that is quite easy for anyone to find out by looking at the records. |
Alfred
The Battle Group
CREDO
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bjlt
Senior Member
1144 Posts |
Posted - 25 March 2003 : 03:23:10
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quote:
This would be irrational to secure and confident individuals, but is quite common in insecure ones.
It seems to have some parallel in the masses.
Yes there are people not mature, wise enough or influnced by the censored information too much.
quote:
Originally posted by Alfred
As to the hatred of everything American by some people, I have an intuitive feeling for some of the cause.
It may be similar to the hatred that some individuals harbor against other individuals who are perceived by them to be better in one respect or another.
It may be if it's a hatred of Everything American. But many times it's not a hatred, just dislike or disagree or anger about certain things American (Government) does. Well, if they find too many these things or one affects them badly, they have an attitude and prejudice natually.
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Edited by - bjlt on 25 March 2003 04:29:04 |
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bjlt
Senior Member
1144 Posts |
Posted - 25 March 2003 : 03:40:43
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Maybe we can really think about publish this thread as a book  Has anyone found such a book nearby? |
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puzo
Junior Member
Israel
417 Posts |
Posted - 25 March 2003 : 03:42:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Heynow777
War is not pretty or fair, especially when the enemy hides behind women and children...
How many do you think he has killed and will in the future?
How many women were killed in 911 which Saddam was somehow responisble for? how many children lost their parents in 911 because of Saddam?
I say let's end the war and let him help in setting up another 911 act. |
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bjlt
Senior Member
1144 Posts |
Posted - 25 March 2003 : 04:21:25
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This is not to anyone personally.
Sometimes an evil minded, or a stupid or blind, or a selfish, or one with any such an inferer quality, no matter what has made them this way, may judge a high-minded, or a wise, or a self-giving activity just adversely, and vice versa.
The past activities of the doer will indeed affect what others think he's doing now. 250 years is actually not a long time ago. Even after when the US got matured, it's not me, but billions of people doubt the purpose of many things the US has done to other countries in the world. I may be wrong, we may be all wrong that the US is indeed act for the good of all mankind, yet if so many people have this feeling it means it's not the right time and right way to do it at least. |
Edited by - bjlt on 25 March 2003 05:40:51 |
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GauravBhabu
Advanced Member
4288 Posts |
Posted - 25 March 2003 : 06:32:19
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quote:
Originally posted by puzo
How many women were killed in 911 which Saddam was somehow responisble for? how many children lost their parents in 911 because of Saddam?
I say let's end the war and let him help in setting up another 911 act.
Perhaps no one disagrees with the loss of life on 911. Whether Sadaam was behind it or not is not proved either way. So making that incident as a case to attack Iraq is just like hanging a person who is not Guilty.
Are we living in a world where Everyone is Guilty until proven Innocent Or Everyone is Innocent until Proven Guilty? |
Edited by - GauravBhabu on 25 March 2003 06:40:41 |
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