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Reinsnitz
Snitz Forums Admin
USA
3545 Posts |
 Posted - 24 March 2003 : 17:16:59
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good points Huw, but then it goes back to alfred's statments... what a tangled web we weave...
And then everyone blames President Bush and calls him names caus he gets the kind of issues to deal with.
I have even more respect for him now than I did 5 minutes ago! Holy cow...
And now I see another thing, President Clinton did not make descisions on these types of issues, he put them off... and ignored them... and I see why now... it's not easy. |
Reinsnitz (Mike) |
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Alfred
Senior Member
USA
1527 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 17:59:25
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quote:
(snip)- Alfred, There is a very good reason on this one, and I have a hard time stomaching it myself, but here goes:
The people of Kurdish "nationality" from the youngest to the oldest are (from what I have learned and what i Have learned is not very informed) quasi terrorists. Much like the Palestinians, instead of using peacefull means of resolving issues have gone to murerouse means of expressing their opinions... a people like this is a hard one to give the right to rule themselves, especialy when they are acting much like terrorist organizations like Alquida. -(snip)
That may be a good point to explain the Turkish nervousness.
However, I am looking a little further back in history for the Kurdish unrest.
The desire to have their own land to themselves, which was denied to them for so long, is understandable.
Would not excuse terrorist activities though - that is where I draw the line.
Sabotage and underground partisan fighting, but no cowardly acts against innocents. |
Alfred
The Battle Group
CREDO
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Alfred
Senior Member
USA
1527 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 18:47:12
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Tarik Aziz, who calls himself a "Foreign Minister", must be an exceptional idiot.
I just heard about of his boasts on Iraqi TV about the length of time it took the coalition forces to take Umm Qasr.
If it took them so long to take this little town, how long will it take them to take Baghdad?
As if it mattered.
As if it would change our resolve.
As if it would change the outcome.
Apparently he forgot that he actually made boasts of victory just a couple of days ago.
Well, he seems to define victory as a delay in being removed from power, or the capture of a handful of supply personnel, including a real tough looking army cook.
What a sad excuse of a diplomat!
Memories of Göring come to mind. |
Alfred
The Battle Group
CREDO
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Reinsnitz
Snitz Forums Admin
USA
3545 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 18:47:39
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amen
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Reinsnitz (Mike) |
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seahorse
Senior Member
USA
1075 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 20:02:34
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quote:
Originally posted by reinsnitz
Seahorse, you should change your profile to show you are an american and not Japanese... hehe
I guess it's how you read the profile country field. I look at country field as my location and not nationality. 
I blame the company. If they'd just transfer me back to Delaware I'd be much happier. |
Ken
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Worldwide Partner Group
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seahorse
Senior Member
USA
1075 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 20:37:09
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quote:
quote:
Does this mean that I like the current conflict? No. It's twelve years too late. I rather we get the business of killing Saddam and his cronies done and over with as soon as possible.
Here you lost me somehow.
Some estimates for the cost of the war are on the order of $70 to $500 billion dollars, depending on how you choose to calculate the cost.
Frankly, Iraq isn't worth that kind of investment.
Let me put it this way. One JDAM GPS bomb kit, that's the guidance kit alone not including the cost of the actual explosive, is approximately $20,000 US dollars. (Laser guided bombs cost even more.)
$20,000 dollars, that's the cost of a Ford Taurus, Toyota Camry, or Honda Accord.
In the early days of the conflict so far, we've used approximately 3000 guide munitions in the "shock and awe" campaign. In other words, we given up the equivalent of 3000 new automobies (60 million dollars) to just to bomb Iraq so far.
So how many cars is $70 billion dollars? 3.5 million. Enough to give a brand new car to every man, woman, and child in a large American city. That's $70 billion dollars not invested into more productive parts of the economy. $70 billion dollars not used to send American children to college, not used to educate doctors, not used to assist people in purchasing their first home, not used build schools, not used to hire police officers, not used to pay for drugs for the elderly. It is money not used to improve the everyday life of American citizens.
You don't have to invade Iraq to kill Saddam. Park B-2 bombers in relays over Iraq and drop a 2000 lb. JDAM on him when he finally shows his face. Do it for days, weeks, months, years if you have to. It will still be cheaper than to shipping a quarter of a million American troops half way around the world. You also wouldn't piss off a good portion of the globe in the process.
My thinking isn't a great call to an idealistic crusade against Iraq. It's a cold hard calculation. I don't think "liberating" Iraq is worth it. To be honest, I'm not even sure I'd spend that much to liberate France.
editted after Bush annouces his estimate for the cost of the war. |
Ken
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Worldwide Partner Group
Microsoft |
Edited by - seahorse on 24 March 2003 20:57:20 |
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Alfred
Senior Member
USA
1527 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 20:55:46
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quote:
Frankly, I don't think Iraq is worth that kind of investment.
No argument from me on that point.quote:
You don't have to invade Iraq to kill Saddam. Park B-2 bombers in relays over Iraq and drop a 2000 lb. JDAM on him when he finally shows his face. Do it for days, weeks, months, years if you have to. It will still be cheaper than to shipping a quarter of a million American troops half way around the world. You also wouldn't piss off a good portion of the globe in the process.
Unfortunately - and I am sure deep down you are aware of this - our system does not condone that option.quote:
My thinking isn't a great call to an idealistic crusade against Iraq. It's a cold hard calculation. I just don't think "liberating" Iraq is worth it.
Hardly any nation that was liberated by the U.S. in recent history, with a few notable exceptions after WWII, was "worth it" or grateful for it.
But that is part of the ever optimistic American naiveté to keep trying to do the "noble" thing. quote:
To be honest, I'm not even sure I'd spend that much to liberate France.
But what about the Roquefort, and the superb Sauterne?
God bless the French - they're always there when they need us!
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Alfred
The Battle Group
CREDO
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Edited by - Alfred on 24 March 2003 21:01:28 |
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seahorse
Senior Member
USA
1075 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 21:41:29
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quote:
quote:
You don't have to invade Iraq to kill Saddam. Park B-2 bombers in relays over Iraq and drop a 2000 lb. JDAM on him when he finally shows his face. Do it for days, weeks, months, years if you have to. It will still be cheaper than to shipping a quarter of a million American troops half way around the world. You also wouldn't piss off a good portion of the globe in the process.
Unfortunately - and I am sure deep down you are aware of this - our system does not condone that option.
The B-2 is one over the top example. I'm sure someone else could think up a more creative option that's more palitable to the national psyche. The point is, I think other alternatives to full out invasion existed.
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Ken
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Worldwide Partner Group
Microsoft |
Edited by - seahorse on 24 March 2003 21:43:49 |
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Alfred
Senior Member
USA
1527 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 22:01:05
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The B-2 is one over the top example. I'm sure someone else could think up a more creative option that's more palitable to the national psyche. The point is, I think other alternatives to full out invasion existed.
I certainly could think of plenty of ways to do it cheaper.
One of them possibly was to hire a crack Israeli team, the kind that handled the Olympic terrorist problem in Munich years ago.
But, that would have presented political problems. I am sure you are aware of our doctrine against assassination of foreign leaders.
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Alfred
The Battle Group
CREDO
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Nathan
Help Moderator
USA
7664 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 22:37:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Alfred
Have you seen the clips of Baghdad streets full of cars going about their daily lives, knowing that all they have to worry about is to stay away from Government installations (and one of the 50 palaces built with the wealth he stole from his people?
You just don't get it, do you?
If this was not the US but another power with similar muscle, Baghdad would be blown away, civilians and all.
Well, it seems that you havn't been reading the news through to the end.
The first bombs we dropped on Bagdad, two 2000 pound bombs and a whole slavo of cruse missiles were directed at a "descrete residential neighborhood" [from msnbc.com]
quote:
Originally posted by reinsnitz
The people of Kurdish "nationality" from the youngest to the oldest are (from what I have learned and what i Have learned is not very informed) quasi terrorists. Much like the Palestinians, instead of using peacefull means of resolving issues have gone to murerouse means of expressing their opinions... a people like this is a hard one to give the right to rule themselves, especialy when they are acting much like terrorist organizations like Alquida.
May I remind you of another "nationality" of people who 227 years ago used violent means to 'remove' themselves from British rule? |
 Nathan Bales
CoreBoard | Active Users Download |
Edited by - Nathan on 24 March 2003 22:38:09 |
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seahorse
Senior Member
USA
1075 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 22:44:04
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But, that would have presented political problems. I am sure you are aware of our doctrine against assassination of foreign leaders.
Bush can repeal the executive order against assassination.
As for the Israelis, I see no need to have the Isrealis to our dirty work.
When contrasting the options of full scale war endangering thousands of Iraqis and Americans, I'd choose assassination. Bush has stated himself that his problem is with Saddam's regeime and not the Iraqi people. So be it, take it to the regeime then. |
Ken
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Worldwide Partner Group
Microsoft |
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Heynow
Junior Member
374 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 22:51:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Nathan
Well, it seems that you havn't been reading the news through to the end.
The first bombs we dropped on Bagdad, two 2000 pound bombs and a whole slavo of cruse missiles were directed at a "descrete residential neighborhood" [from msnbc.com]
Right where the military leaders were and probably took out a few also.. |
Political Forums:::Stay n Chat
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Alfred
Senior Member
USA
1527 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 23:26:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Nathan
quote:
Originally posted by Alfred
Have you seen the clips of Baghdad streets full of cars going about their daily lives, knowing that all they have to worry about is to stay away from Government installations (and one of the 50 palaces built with the wealth he stole from his people?
You just don't get it, do you?
If this was not the US but another power with similar muscle, Baghdad would be blown away, civilians and all.
Well, it seems that you havn't been reading the news through to the end.
The first bombs we dropped on Bagdad, two 2000 pound bombs and a whole slavo of cruse missiles were directed at a "descrete residential neighborhood" [from msnbc.com]
[sarcasm]Of course, the U.S. is known to go to great length to target civilians. That is what we spend our billions on - develpoing smart bombs to kill civilians, since they are the biggest threat to us.[/sarcasm]
Oh, sorry - that's the other guys who do that... |
Alfred
The Battle Group
CREDO
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Nathan
Help Moderator
USA
7664 Posts |
Posted - 25 March 2003 : 00:12:17
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I'm sure the emergency crews (civilians) who responded to that first blast appriciated the cruise missles which were sent in to "clean up."
They were targeting Saddam. But at what cost? A 2000 pound bomb is a 2000 pound bomb, its going to take out more than one building in the dence urban environment of Bagdad. And those wonderful cleanup cruse missles are only accurate to rougly 10 meters, that makes a huge difference if your trying to pick a tiny house out of a city. "Oops! The GPS didn't adjust for that tree" |
Nathan Bales
CoreBoard | Active Users Download |
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Heynow
Junior Member
374 Posts |
Posted - 25 March 2003 : 00:19:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Nathan
I'm sure the emergency crews (civilians) who responded to that first blast appriciated the cruise missles which were sent in to "clean up."
They were targeting Saddam. But at what cost? A 2000 pound bomb is a 2000 pound bomb, its going to take out more than one building in the dence urban environment of Bagdad. And those wonderful cleanup cruse missles are only accurate to rougly 10 meters, that makes a huge difference if your trying to pick a tiny house out of a city. "Oops! The GPS didn't adjust for that tree"
War is not pretty or fair, especially when the enemy hides behind women and children...
How many do you think he has killed and will in the future? |
Political Forums:::Stay n Chat
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