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GauravBhabu
Advanced Member
4288 Posts |
 Posted - 24 March 2003 : 10:47:03
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quote:
Originally posted by reinsnitz
Boz, no reply on my post in the middle of page 14?
5th post on page 14. There has to be a better way of pointing to a post. Need a Mod.  |
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bjlt
Senior Member
1144 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 11:13:05
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| I thinnk Richard can always point to a specific post in a url, somthing like #post number. it's already here <a name="225814"></a> but don't know if one can get the nubmer easily. |
Edited by - bjlt on 24 March 2003 11:15:40 |
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GauravBhabu
Advanced Member
4288 Posts |
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Alfred
Senior Member
USA
1527 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 11:25:02
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drirene, a couple of pages back you wrotequote:
You are being too hard. Who can blame these people? Who in their right mind wants to create waves in unsafe spaces? And who isn't happy to join the "right" side when the going is easier.
Maybe so, but it stems from a deep-rooted distaste I have for lack of integrity.
What business have Turkish troops NOW on the Iraqi side of the border?
They claim the concern is refugees.
Even allowing for their refusal of the humanitarian mission of accepting the poor victims who are looking for a temporary safe haven, there is no justification of incursions into Iraqi territory.
They forsaked that right by standing by and letting the Allieds do the dirty work, and risk their lives.
Are you old enough to remember the Hungarian uprising in the fifties?
And the Russian tanks that rolled over them ([sarcasm]I am sure being careful not to harm civilians![/sarcasm])?
Tiny Austria, still reeling from the devastation of WWII, opened it's borders to tens of thousands of refugees, and housed and fed them until they could return to permanent new homes - many of them to the US.
For me, the action of Turkey does not bring that memory to mind, rather the image of vultures keeps popping up when I hear about it. |
Alfred
The Battle Group
CREDO
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Alfred
Senior Member
USA
1527 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 11:48:57
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Seahorse, you wrotequote:
I blame George Bush SENIOR for not having the guts to finish the job and dispose of Saddam when he had the chance back in 1991. We were all over Iraq in 1991 and he let the S.O.B go. No one would have cared less if we had put a laser guided bomb through Saddam's front window then.
We are in full agreement on that, although I understand why it happened.
You see, one of the problems with our national mentality is that we want to be the "guys in the white hat" at all times, and to all people.
Bush senior carried out precisely what the coalition had set out to do, which was to free Kuwait, and he was making sure that nobody could claim any other interest of the US.
So we missed our chance to remove the monsters from power.
The next chance was missed by Clinton, when the Iraqis expelled the UN inspectors. Well, he was to busy with more pressing personal affairs...quote:
Does this mean that I like the current conflict? No. It's twelve years too late. I rather we get the business of killing Saddam and his cronies done and over with as soon as possible.
Here you lost me somehow.
The son had the guts and resolve to do what his two predecessors failed to do, although it is much harder now, because people's memories are so short, and they lose focus too easily.
So, if we want Saddam removed - how would you do it now other than what we are doing?
This action of resolve and courage against all odds (possibly sacrificing his political career as a consequence) deserves your unmitigated support.
He has mine. |
Alfred
The Battle Group
CREDO
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Alfred
Senior Member
USA
1527 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 12:04:32
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quote:
Well Alfred, the problem is "a bit" more complex. Think of a hypothetical case of people on North Canada want self-governance also adding Alaska into their land...
You are confusing a few things here.
First of all, I don't know what you refer to with "North Canada", since to my knowledge there is no such province.
- Canada does govern itself.
- "Adding" Alaska to their land, as you put it, would be an invasion, and be treated as such.
I am always in favor of granting any entity of people the right to govern itself.
In my ideal world the preference of the people should decide whether they want to join with a neigbor or not.
No one else should have any say in that - certainly not the neighbor, except refusal to accept the union.
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Alfred
The Battle Group
CREDO
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Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 12:07:10
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LOL. Where is my Abacus anyway? ... Mike, here it goes :)
quote:
Originally posted by reinsnitz
boz, I'd like to say that you and us don't realy need to be at odds ever.
we would love to have a peacefull planet... and we need people like yourself pushing for it to happen, this way the rest of us don't lose focus on the ultimate goal, but in the mean time, someone has to keep the people like Sadam under control.
It seems to me that both of us have a very important part to play in the world today. Very Important.
Mike, I didn't ignore you, neither did I miss the post, don't be afraid  .
The problem in our communication (regarding the posts made by two sides of the debate on this issue) is mainly caused by our attitude toward our country and our political standing. Also we may have different interpretations of US-Turkey relations in the past. But that needs at least a short lesson of history to make you (plural) understand what I want to say, otherwise it can be interpreted in the wrong way. Therefore I want to save an answer at this stage.
The interpretation of events that shape the future needs some more time because they change a lot.
No offense, but your words sounded like the clichés that have been told to us for years. I think/hope a new "war of independence" is nearing here, a political/economical one, without any arms, but hearts... And yes, there is no need for any problems in the meantime. I hope the importance of Turkey drops in the eyes of US Government so that things can start rolling .
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Alfred
Senior Member
USA
1527 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 12:07:59
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quote:
I think Alfred meant to pick a city in Turkey, rather than India.
Of course, but Bombay will make the point for Gaurav. |
Alfred
The Battle Group
CREDO
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Alfred
Senior Member
USA
1527 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 12:15:51
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quote:
quote:
So Turkey feels it is her right to "allow" or disallow a neighboring people to govern itself?
Heaven help the world if your country were a superpower.
No, that judgment is reserved for the U.S. it seems :)
Why do you keep ignoring the fact that the US is spilling the blood of their young men for precisely that purpose - to let people govern themselves!
You are making a cliché accusation which ignores the basic principles of our actions. |
Alfred
The Battle Group
CREDO
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Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 12:32:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Alfred
quote:
Well Alfred, the problem is "a bit" more complex. Think of a hypothetical case of people on North Canada want self-governance also adding Alaska into their land...
You are confusing a few things here.
First of all, I don't know what you refer to with "North Canada", since to my knowledge there is no such province.
- Canada does govern itself.
- "Adding" Alaska to their land, as you put it, would be an invasion, and be treated as such.
I am always in favor of granting any entity of people the right to govern itself.
In my ideal world the preference of the people should decide whether they want to join with a neigbor or not.
No one else should have any say in that - certainly not the neighbor, except refusal to accept the union.
So we are talking about similar things. The so called Kurdistan also includes the north-eastern parts of Turkey... Turkey (hopefully) governs itself, and existence of Kurdistan (having control of some of the oil in north Iraq) will cause much more problems.
These are not my own thoughts, I just try to replicate the reasons behind Turkey's behaviour. I can easily critisize the decisions of the government much more than anybody around, and my standpoint is not far away from yours.
On the other hand, I'm afraid you don't do the same...
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Stop the WAR! |
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Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 12:38:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Alfred
quote:
I think Alfred meant to pick a city in Turkey, rather than India.
Of course, but Bombay will make the point for Gaurav.
Two birds in one shot  |
Stop the WAR! |
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Alfred
Senior Member
USA
1527 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 12:38:51
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bjlt, you wrote -quote:
No, terrorism is not good at all, and it's not good no matter it's done for what a reason. Bush said the terrorists are cowards and blah blah blah. and I see no reason and no logic behind it. What I tried to emphasie here is that it seems the majority or Americans do not think enought about why such kind a terrorism attack happened.
this man is a coward <> terrorist activity against the US
or in another words, what do Bush suggest them to do not to be a coward?
I am sorry, but there is no way I can accept your view on that particular point.
There is NO excuse EVER for intentionally harming innocent, uninvolved people, for ANY cause whatsoever.
Doing so is an act of utmost cowardice and disregard of basic "right and wrong".
"What should they" do is not a justification to do the wrong thing.
If they cannot find the right way they may have to face the fact that their cause is a lost one, the same way as we have to face this fact on many occasions.
And believe me, it is harder to accept that fact when you know in your heart that your cause was just. |
Alfred
The Battle Group
CREDO
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Alfred
Senior Member
USA
1527 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 12:48:06
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quote:
The so called Kurdistan also includes the north-eastern parts of Turkey... Turkey (hopefully) governs itself, and existence of Kurdistan (having control of some of the oil in north Iraq) will cause much more problems.
...and that would be a problem because...?
What would be wrong with an ethnic group to decide how they want to live?
What would be wrong with a plebiscite for the Kurds?
They have always been a fiercely independent people, and had to survive for centuries under the yoke of foreign governments. |
Alfred
The Battle Group
CREDO
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Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 12:54:44
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| Alfred, OK you are right |
Stop the WAR! |
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bjlt
Senior Member
1144 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 12:58:37
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Alfred,
the discussions about Canada reminded me of something that I removed from my last post, I removed it as I didn't remember exactly what I read in an article and I'm not familiar about the issue mentioned myself.
Well here it is. It's an article by an Japanese intellectual after 911 on why Americans do not want to look into the reasons they are attacked. The article is quite interesing but I don't remember the details of it, and I may have wrong interpretation now. One thing in it is about the foundation of the US. The US is founded on the tragedy of the Indian people, and according to laws and principles now the whole land belongs to the Indian tribes. And that's a blot of the US history which the Americans don't like to think deeply. Well, I'm not sure what the relationship between the US government and the local Americans have been, but I did remember years ago Canada disclaimed that they'd reached an agreement with the Local people, it said something about the land of Canand is theirs, they accept and admit the Canada government and abondon the rights to claim the lands or something like that, while they own northen part (1/3 of Canada or so) of Canada as autonomous regions. A Canadian must can explain it better. As I said I don't know Americans' stand on this issue please who knows it better explain a bit to me. My impression is the US hasn't done simmilar things.
I do believe that many many Americans have some sort of internationalism and they have been and are spilling blood for the purpose you mention. Yet there are many many people have the impression that what the US government has done to other nations in the past does show quite some natures against what they have claimed. I know some of them are due to propaganda and censorship, but I also believe some are ture or really sounds/looks true. Israeli for example. What will you think someone who claims to always do the right thing but you see unfairness and selfish behind it? |
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