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seahorse
Senior Member
USA
1075 Posts |
 Posted - 24 March 2003 : 03:25:49
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I have no fear that we not prevail in Iraq or against Al Queda.
As an American, I fear the response that these events will cause to American society. I fear the damage that censorship, and the denial of due process will do to American society.
A society confident in the justice of it's cause should not have to shout down or prevent those who hold a different opinion from speaking. Only those who are uncertain of their cause would see it necessary to suppress those who do no share the same view.
I fear the loss of tolerance.
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Ken
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Worldwide Partner Group
Microsoft |
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HuwR
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
20604 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 03:31:39
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quote:
Originally posted by seahorse
A society confident in the justice of it's cause should not have to shout down or prevent those who hold a different opinion from speaking. Only those who are uncertain of their cause would see it necessary to suppress those who do no share the same view.
Well said seahorse. and we should remember why we are 'free' people. |
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snerdley
New Member
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 03:33:49
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quote:
Originally posted by seahorse
I have no fear that we not prevail in Iraq or against Al Queda.
As an American, I fear the response that these events will cause to American society. I fear the damage that censorship, and the denial of due process will do to American society.
A society confident in the justice of it's cause should not have to shout down or prevent those who hold a different opinion from speaking. Only those who are uncertain of their cause would see it necessary to suppress those who do no share the same view.
I fear the loss of tolerance.
Where do you see this shouting down, and lack of tolerance of differing opinions? Seems everyone with an opinion has, and is, posting here without hinderance. This thread is probably one of the most tame discussions of the war I have seen anywhere on the web! 
Or were you referring to something in the media somewhere?
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Bladesnitz
Snitz Hosting Admin
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 03:50:06
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Forgive me is this is redundant, too late, or otherwise... I can't read through 14 pages, and I am sure this post will be lost to the masses, but I feel the need to say the words.
I truly believe that peace is a common goal for ALL good people. A certain state of peace exists in some nations, the free nations of the world, the US, the UK, the Western European nations, and others.
It is sad though, that the ones who cry for peace, do not wish all to know what peace is. The men and woman and children in wartorn countries are not at peace, and I myself cannot find peace for myself knowing this.
I believe America has not necessarily chosen the task of the great protector of the free nations, but it has been forced upon America, and America has shown that it is willing to carry out this task.
Consider history:
Before WWI, there was peace, a very tense peace. Nations built up alliances and friendships, and eventually two large alliances developed. It took one assassination to bring the "peace" tumbling to the ground, and now, two major forces with major problems were at war. The first World War had begun. America became involved through various reasons, and the war ended.
Before WWII, there was peace, again, a very tense peace. When Hitler came to power, he began building a military force of such power that the world had not yet seen.
-> A military Germany had been prohibited from building after WWI. <-
Throughout the 1930's, the world, especially Europeans, the French, the Polish, the British, and others, saw and knew what Germany was doing. Instead of going to war, they ignored the problem, hoping it would go away. It didn't. France, defeated in a matter of weeks, and Poland soon after. Europe was on the verge of collapse as a whole from the juggernaut that was now Germany. Again, America tried to stay out of the war, but the Japanese forced official American entrance into the war, and the war ended with Allied "victory" again.
Vietnam was yet ANOTHER war America did not want to be invovled with. I believe Vietnam was a really odd political incident. Ho Chi Minh loved Democracy, he was scorned by Woodrow Wilson after WWI, and after WWII, free of Japan and France, they celebrated their indendence with many symbols of American democracy, supported by American generals and admirals.
France stepped in, wanting their colony back. We gave in so they would join NATO. When France left, Ho Chi Minh gave up on democracy, but by that time, America was fighitng for "democracy".
The development of NATO & the Warsaw Pact was very reminiscence of WWI beginnings. Fortuenatly, no world war ensued from these alliances, but they have left a very bad taste in our mouth ever since.
Now, we have been poised with a dilemma. Repeat history?
Ten years ago, Saddam Hussein invaded a country, Kuwait.
America and the UN responded with force, and forced him out of Kuwait, and supplied him with terms so that we left his country to him. He accepted the terms, but never followed them. He has dragged his feet for 10 years. He has rebuilt his weapons. He has rebuilt his military.
--> As Germany did before WWII <--
Had we interceded against Germany in the mid 1930's... perhaps the Holocaust would never have happened. Perhaps Hiroshima, and Nagasaki would never have happened. Perhaps millions of lives would have been saved.
So this week, we chose to intercede. We chose to take out an evil man before he may wreck havoc upon the world. Perhaps more lives will be lost immediately that would have been lost had we let Saddam stay in power. But perhaps, we are saving BILLIONS of lives. That is what we will never know for certain, we only know of those lost, but cannot ever know those who are saved.
Saddam Hussein, who has proven his evil ways many times. He witholds freedom from his people, and he brutally murders them. He helped to fund the World Trade Center attacks - I believe the President when he says this, becuase the President has the knowledge that we do not have. I understand that perhaps we will never see this knowledge, but we must have faith. If hard numbers were revealed, it could endanger the lives of the CIA operatives and other men who discovered the information. We must trust those we elect, or the government fails.
America has now finally stepped into the role given to it. I hope we continue to protect the people of the world, and allow them the opportunity to live in freedom as we do.
If we do not continue forward, then all the lives lost is for naught.
Respect those who have given their lives for YOUR freedom, and respect those who are willing to give their lives for the freedom of others.
Only when all are free will we truly be free.
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seahorse
Senior Member
USA
1075 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 04:08:44
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quote:
Where do you see this shouting down, and lack of tolerance of differing opinions? Seems everyone with an opinion has, and is, posting here without hinderance. This thread is probably one of the most tame discussions of the war I have seen anywhere on the web!
In reading this discussion. The tone towards those who oppose war in Iraq strikes me a harsh, and disrespectful of the anti-war contributors.
No one who respects the opinion of another would deride an opinion as a "dream" or deride a contributor of being a "dreamer". An anti-war contributor's belief that war in Iraq is not the best solution is no "dream". It is a personal conviction shaped by their life experiences and the society they live in. Do not belittle it by calling it a dream.
While I do not completely agree with Bozden or GB on their opinions twoards war in Iraq, I respect them for what they are, valued contributors to the Snitz community.
They have served this community long and well. Disagree if you wish, but treat them with the respect which is due to them.
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Ken
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Worldwide Partner Group
Microsoft |
Edited by - seahorse on 24 March 2003 04:09:57 |
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HuwR
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
20604 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 04:11:06
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Bladesnitz,
Yes most of your comments have appeared before, I myself have made some of your points, but it seems people forget the lessons learnt from history.
even after Iraq have speant 4 days firing 'non existant' missiles into Kuwait people still do not think that anything should be done about it. |
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snerdley
New Member
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 05:04:14
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quote:
Originally posted by seahorse
quote:
Where do you see this shouting down, and lack of tolerance of differing opinions? Seems everyone with an opinion has, and is, posting here without hinderance. This thread is probably one of the most tame discussions of the war I have seen anywhere on the web!
In reading this discussion. The tone towards those who oppose war in Iraq strikes me a harsh, and disrespectful of the anti-war contributors.
No one who respects the opinion of another would deride an opinion as a "dream" or deride a contributor of being a "dreamer". An anti-war contributor's belief that war in Iraq is not the best solution is no "dream". It is a personal conviction shaped by their life experiences and the society they live in. Do not belittle it by calling it a dream.
While I do not completely agree with Bozden or GB on their opinions twoards war in Iraq, I respect them for what they are, valued contributors to the Snitz community.
They have served this community long and well. Disagree if you wish, but treat them with the respect which is due to them.
Oh! Your post was aimed at me! Wow, I had no idea I had hurt someones feelers.
You didn't read my posts very well........ I was not referring to anyones opinion on the war as a "dream." I was referring to their actual, self-admitted "dream." The dream of a utopian world without war or conflict. Go ahead, ask them. They'll tell you their dream is of a world free from war and conflict. And I also stated that it was a "very noble dream indeed." Even I would love to live in a world like that. But it is just that, a dream. That's my opinion, and I stated it. No disrespect was intended. Gee, hopefully the ones you're defending aren't as thin-skinned as you seem to be. No offense intended of course. <grin>
Oh, okay! I'll do the right thing! I apologize to any and all who may have been offended by the way I stated my opinion. There, better?
Jeez, those zany Americans! Always doing the right thing!
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seahorse
Senior Member
USA
1075 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 05:49:58
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I'd like those in this community who don't share the majority opinion to feel welcome. If I have misquoted you, I apologize. If it means I seem thin skinned, so be it.
There may be a day where I defend your right to an opinion on these forums someday. I may not agree with some of the opinions posted here or how they are said, but like any true American, I'll defend a person's right to express it.
quote:
No offense intended of course. <grin>
None taken.
quote:
Jeez, those zany Americans! Always doing the right thing!
Yes, we're funny that way, aren't we?
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Ken
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Worldwide Partner Group
Microsoft |
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bjlt
Senior Member
1144 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 05:52:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Alfred
bjlt, in spite of your limited communication skills in English you are making some very good points, and they can be understood.
There is just one thing I can not find myself in agreement with - you write:quote:
Another thing about terrorism. It's not good at all. Yet I don't agree only cowards do it. If there's no judge or (you feel) the judge is not justice and the one who spites you is 100 times stronger than all other people, what will you do?
What you descibe may apply to partisan fighters but not to terrorists.
There is a vital difference between a Partisan, or underground fighter and a terrorist.
The partisan is fighting his superior enemy in the style he is able to, and he is bravely willing to give his life for his cause.
He does NOT aim to kill innocent, uninvolved people.
The terrorist, on the other hand is an indiscriminate killer of totally innocent people, and does not deserve respect or consideration from ANY human being, other than his mad co-terrorists or ingrained haters of the terrorized people.
No, terrorism is not good at all, and it's not good no matter it's done for what a reason. Bush said the terrorists are cowards and blah blah blah. and I see no reason and no logic behind it. What I tried to emphasie here is that it seems the majority or Americans do not think enought about why such kind a terrorism attack happened.
this man is a coward <> terrorist activity against the US
or in another words, what do Bush suggest them to do not to be a coward?
I can understand a politician in the US have to react with a srong hand to an incident as 911, and I can understand American people's reaction right after that tragedy. However, as time passes by they should think more about the reasons why but unfortunately I don't see much of it.
Well, again I'm against any kind of terrorism and I do think 911 is a tragedy. Meanwhile I do feel Americans should think more about the reasons of such activities. Besides I see no logic between coward and terrorists, I can see some logic in the terrorists mind, and it' s better, in terms of logic, than the one of coward. No, I don't mean I agree with it.
Let's assume the war now is necessary, then the lost of lives of cililians are unavoidable. Everybody accepts this statement, right? Also here we know Sadam is a dictator, he might be doing things that his people do not support, or let's assume he's a devil. Things like this is relatively simple, he's the enemy but not
his army, not to mention civilians, and thanks god the coalition have the technolody to target him.
Now let's make a comparison. What if, it doesn't mean I agree with it, some people feel the enemy is not a person, a troop, but a nation, a religion or a system? In a democratic country the government/congress is electted so they are not a target that could be easily indentified like a dictator, and if one thinks the whole nation , religion or system is the enemy then everybody there is enemy, everybody there is part of the target. People died in such terrorism activity might be inocent but it's like the lives lost in a war necessary. We can see examples in religious wars in the past, and wars between settlers and local tribes. At least I can see the logic if they say it's a war but not terrorism. Again I don't agree with it at all. What I want to say is Americans do need to think more about the reasons of such activities, do need to think more about why there are people hates them that much. It's not a matter of hatred from those terrorites only, there are quite some people out there, though showed sympathy to the innocent lives lost and anger about the terrorism activities, yet they feel such kind of things will happen some day.
Back to the current war.
Argue here seems to be to war or not to war, well IMHO it's not the point, not at all. Nobody will act oppose the idea and fact the Allied Forces' fighting back against Naci and fascism, right? but why so many people and governments are against the war brought out by the US now? First, it's not the best or last choice, Second, the reasons of the war, that published by the US government are not solid proved, and finally, it's not authorised and it may bring much trouble to the whole world later.
Some people out there may say 12 years has past and .... Well, ask yourself what the US government did on this issue in the past 12 years? Is it real the last choice to war, is the war so urgent to be carried now? I'm not against a war if it's really needed, but is it, is it needed now?
Look at what the US government said about why such a war is neccesary. At first it's for the close relationship between Sadam and Binladen, then it's changed to the suspected weapons not allowed to be possessed by Iraq, later it became the dictatorship of Sadam and to free the people there, and now they say it doesn't matter even if Sadam resignes. I see news today that some Americans demonstrated to support the war to bring freedom to the people in Iraq, I say they think the war is to bring freedom to Iraq people they are naive. Yes Iraq people might have more freedom later but first the war is for the interests of the US, and these interests are more than what the US government says publicly. Still even if it is indeed being done and intented to be done for the interests of the US, it might not be a good choice. Also it's not a internal matter of America but involves the whole world now. I didn't see solid proving of the relationship between S & B or terrorism, even if there is, I don't think the US are authorised automatically to carry out a war there. Same goes to the forbiden weapons issue. About freedom to the Iraq people, well it sounds good but we have to think about it really carefully.
First, let's make a simple example. Dark is bad in comparison with moderate sunlight, right? Then how about put you in a dark room for a couple of days and bring in sunlight suddenly? You get blind. This is mere an example but can you see something out of it. Yes human rights, freedom, democracy are valuble and universal accepted treasures of human society, yet only a hundred years back we did not have them. It takes time for the whole world to progress, maybe much time than we expect.
Second, humanity is mentioned here a lot, take another example and we can see it's also of humanity that man may abandon freedom to have dictatorship instead. In Acient Rome people abandoned democacy to have an emperor as alternative, why? At least it shows some people will compromise and if it's their choice how can other people force them to do something they do not want to? No I don't say Sadam is not a dictator and the people there have chosen to live that way. However, ten years back before the gulf war, Iraq was one of the richest country in the world, and I believe just like in Ancient Rome, quite a lot people did not care too much about not having the freedom of the western nations.
Thirdly things are more complicated when taking consideration of the history, culture and religion of a specific country. Some European and Asian people laughted at the election of the US that one with more votes did not win, well it is caused by the history and fact that the US is the united states of America. It might not be perfect but it has the reasons why it's like this now. Same thing applies to other countries. Sure there are evil man and dictators on the world, and there are nations in which people want more rights they don't have now but hard to get by themselves, yet, I don't think it's proper for one nation to take action against another for it without autorization of an international organization like UN. How about Sadam sending troops to the US, saying they think the election in the US is not democratic enough and they would like to help the US to reform it? Don't take me wrong on this but please think about it.
Some people say hei, look at the news, we've found banned weapons in Iraq. Well it's not proved yet. It's also possible that some people fakes one, I only say there are such possibilities and I won't be supprised if it's proven that Iraq does have some. Anyway actually cheating like this are what many of the governments, including the US one did in the past. The most important is not whether they have a forbiden weapon or not. Ask yourself why the system is designed to order Simpson to compensate the family of his wife while he's not guilty? Didn't the policeman found enough evidence in his home? Americans accept it and are actually proud of the system, as it's designed to proctect the ordinary poeple from potential harm from the government and man with power. I really like such a system and it's not one every country have, but if you like it too you can understand why so many people and governmenst are against the action taken by the US now. You don't want that some people are exceptions of laws, do you?
The coalition is not authorised to do what they are doing now, and they are not selected as judges. It's indeed a invasion in terms of Internation Law. That's why most large and middle sized countries are upset. Small nations are not that important and influential in international relations. The current system of UN might not be perfect and may need a reform, but it's in a certain order. What the US do now is to break such a order. It's ok if they are tring to work out a better one most nations accept, but they are not doing it this way. the US has used UN when needed but neglected it if they could not get enough support or it's too trouble to have such support for many years. And what the US is doing now is to bring disorder and uncertainty, well isn't disorder a synonym of out of order? Oops, I fogot to the Americans and their allied, they are the oder, but isn't it against the freedom and democracy they are talking all the time?
Well, have to say more about Americans people. I do feel that the majority of them are kind, warmhearted but naive, ignorant about other part of the world, all the things I listed in the post above. If it's true, well I might be influneced, brain washed, or stupid and ignorant, but I do feel it's true. If it's true, it can cause quite some trouble. Just think about how really one can help, one who knows little about you, who actually cares about their own interests, and who does believe he's doing good for you and have to power to affect or even control you. how? Not a good result always. And things might be even worse as they feel, really feel they are doing it for you.
Well it's quite lengthy, yet it's a scrach of one who uses English as a foreign language. And though I think I'm one of the 2% here I do admite that I'm influneced by the culture and media someway. (Well FYI I have access to the major western media and some asian ones as well)
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Edited by - bjlt on 24 March 2003 10:36:08 |
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snerdley
New Member
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 06:17:27
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quote:
....this man is coward <> terrorist activity against the US
or in another words, what do Bush suggest them to do not to be a coward?....
Gee, that's a tough one! Hmmm......... let's see now........... how about this suggestion.........
Stop Targeting Innocent Civilian People To Blow Up!
Kill yourself if you must, but show a respect for other's lives, even if you have none for your own. What courage is there in purposely killing an innocent civilian kid? You see, this is not how things are done in the civilized world. These governments (such as they are), should stop allowing the old, twisted mullahs from spewing their hate and deceit to their children from a young age. That's the only way it is going to stop. I'm afraid the current generation is already lost.
BTW, isn't this suicide bombing stuff done for self-gain anyway? Aren't they promised lots of virgins in heaven and money for their family from sadaam? Sounds to me like they're looking out for numero uno. Nah, couldn't be. Only the Americans are that greedy.
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GauravBhabu
Advanced Member
4288 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 06:48:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Alfred
...If 9/11 had happened in Bombay you would probably feel different about it too...
If that had happened there USA would always say "Use Restrain". USA Bombed Afghanistan after 9/11 and now Iraq. Which other country has gone attacking other countries following terrorist acts on their Land or how many times USA has told the Nations, facing or fearing terrorist attacks, to go attack the Nations which are belived to be behind those actual or feared acts of terrorism.
I am not against America or Americans. It is just that I do not support any act of Killing.
Peace. Stop War. |
Edited by - GauravBhabu on 24 March 2003 07:08:48 |
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HuwR
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
20604 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 08:41:47
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| Actually, we did for many years because of the IRA mainland bombing campaign (funded by US sympathisers mainly) |
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sr_erick
Senior Member
USA
1318 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 10:12:54
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This is turning into a book! Three pages of posts overnight, and they aren't short posts!  |
Erick
Snowmobile Fanatics
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Reinsnitz
Snitz Forums Admin
USA
3545 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 10:18:15
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| Seahorse, you should change your profile to show you are an american and not Japanese... hehe |
Reinsnitz (Mike) |
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Reinsnitz
Snitz Forums Admin
USA
3545 Posts |
Posted - 24 March 2003 : 10:18:44
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| Boz, no reply on my post in the middle of page 14? |
Reinsnitz (Mike) |
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