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xyzzy
Starting Member
Italy
17 Posts |
 Posted - 04 March 2005 : 14:55:59
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quote:
Originally posted by ruirib
I've emailed gnu as well. Waiting for the reply.
Good.
I have also emailed FSF again providing them with more details.
We will see.
Cheers,
xyzzy
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xyzzy
Starting Member
Italy
17 Posts |
Posted - 04 March 2005 : 15:11:01
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quote:
Originally posted by RichardKinser
You agreed to our license when you downloaded our software. You can either abide by our license (which you already agreed to), or not use our forum. Those are your only choices. I'm through discussing this. I'm tired of stating the same thing over and over again.
I will tell you what I did, then you tell me how I agreed to any license that is not the GPL version 2 (or any later version) when I downloaded the software:
1) I went to http://forum.snitz.com/.
2) In the site menu I have clicked on "Downloads".
3) I have scrolled down until I have seen something clickable
and I got to a section titled "Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05",
which is what I was looking for.
4) There I have read the following (notice that the word in blue, "GPL", was and is anchored to http://www.fsf.org/copyleft/gpl.html):
quote:
This is current official version. If you use a previous version of the forums, you are advised to upgrade.
Snitz Forums 2000 is a free product that is governed by the GPL. You are free to download and use these forums without charge, under the condition that you don't charge for it either, and that you keep the copyrights intact.
Download the latest version and join in the discussion in the forums!
Download: Snitz Forums 2000 v3.4.05
If you already have version 3.4.04 you can also just download the changed files:
Snitz Forums 2000 v3.4.04 -> v3.4.05
Make sure you also subscribe to one of the Snitz Mailinglists so you'll be notified of important news and/or new releases/updates.
And please also frequent Announcements: Security Related Bug Fixes where we will post new Security Updates as they are needed.
Can you tell me how my act of downloading sf2k_v34_05.zip implies I have agreed to any license that is not the one available at http://www.fsf.org/copyleft/gpl.html?
Thanks,
xyzzy
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RichardKinser
Snitz Forums Admin
USA
16655 Posts |
Posted - 04 March 2005 : 15:30:58
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must I again (and again) point out the following section that is contained at the TOP of every single .asp file:
quote:
'## All copyright notices regarding Snitz Forums 2000
'## must remain intact in the scripts and in the outputted HTML
'## The "powered by" text/logo with a link back to
'## http://forum.snitz.com in the footer of the pages MUST
'## remain visible when the pages are viewed on the internet or intranet.
If you adhere to the above, then you can use the forum. If you choose not to, then you CAN NOT use the forum. It can't get any more simple.
You are really getting on my nerves. DO NOT presume that you can show up one day and decide to just ignore a license that has been in effect for around 5 years. We have had people like you come here and try to say that our license is invalid, guess what, the license is still there, and we still enforce it. I have had plenty of sites either shut down, or the host told the user to either adhere to our license or have their site shutdown. If our license was invalid, do you really think that they would terminate a paying customer?
Nothing you say or do is going to change the fact that in order to use our forum, you must leave the Powered By Logo/Text link with a link back to http://forum.snitz.com/.
Good luck in your search of a different forum software to use. |
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xyzzy
Starting Member
Italy
17 Posts |
Posted - 04 March 2005 : 16:01:58
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Here is a verbatim copy of the reply I just got. I have only added the emphasis at the end to draw your attention, once again, on the fact that there is no way the "Powered by/Link back" requirement can ever be compatible with the GPL version 2.
QED
quote:
From: "Dave Turner via RT" <licensing@fsf.org>
Reply-To: licensing@fsf.org
In-Reply-To: <rt-223821@gnu.org>
Message-ID: <rt-3.0.8-223821-725828.16.4188408570232@rt.gnu.org>
RT-Ticket: gnu.org #223821
RT-Originator: novalis@gnu.org
To: xyzzy@xyzzy.xyzzy
Cc: licensing@gnu.org
Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 15:26:55 -0500
Subject: [gnu.org #223821] GPL'd software forbids modification of some code
>[xyzzy@xyzzy.xyzzy - Fri Mar 04 10:23:33 2005]:
>>
>> Dave Turner via RT wrote:
>
>>>> >>[xyzzy@xyzzy.xyzzy - Tue Mar 01 16:53:38 2005]:
>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>>>> >>The package of "Snitz Forums
>>>> >>2000"
>>>> >>contains a copy of the GPL so that everything seems OK. However, the
>>>> >>code
>>>> >>has 8 sections of code that look like the following:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>'## START - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL
>>>> >>VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT
>>>> >>Response.Write "<meta name=""copyright"" content=""This Forum code is
>>>> >>Copyright (C) 2000-05 Michael Anderson,
>>>> >> Pierre Gorissen, Huw Reddick and Richard Kinser, Non-Forum Related
>>>> >>code is Copyright (C) " & strCopyright & """>"
>>>> >> & vbNewline
>>>> >>'## END - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL
>>>> >>VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT
>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > <snip>
>>> >
>>
>>>> >>This is a very strange reading of the GPL, in my humble opinion. So I
>>>> >>got in touch with one of the copyright holders and his answers was
>>>> >>constituted by the following single sentence: "The GPL does not allow
>>>> >>you to remove the copyright notices, if you have a problem, then don't
>>>> >>use the code, it is your choice."
>>>> >>
>>>> >>I am thus writing to you to understand whether this reading of the GPL
>>>> >>is correct. I guess what they claim is that the 8 sections of code
>>>> >>above are copyright notices and the GPL does not allow to touch them.
>>>> >>My understanding is that the copyright notices must exist in the
>>>> >>sources (and they are there, in the form of comments at the beginning
>>>> >>of each source module), not (necessarily) in the output of the
>>>> >>program. The last section of the marked code, the one inserting a link
>>>> >>to their web site seems to have even less to do with the GPL.
>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > That's generally true. There is one case where copyright notices are
>>> > required in output -- that's section (2)(c) of the GPL. For web
>>> > applications, that's notices on the front page which have all of the
>>> > following:
>>> >
>>> > (1) copyright
>>> > (2) no warranty
>>> > (3) this program is GPL
>>> > (4) where to find a copy of the GPL.
>>> >
>>> > For web applications, HTML comments satisfy the requirement.
>>> >
>>> > So, this guy's requirement goes beyond the GPL.
>
>>
>> Thanks Dave.
>>
>> I have reported your answer to the copyright owners of
>> Snitz Forum 2000 but to no avail. They claim that the
>> FSF is contradicting itself citing the message reported
>> here
>>
>> http://phpnuke.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=4947
>>
>> If you search on Google
>>
>> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c2coff=1&q=gnu+213080+GPL
>>
>> you will see that your words of 2002 are used to justify
>> the imposition of constraints that go beyond the GPL.
>> Notice that I know nothing about this other software (PHPNuke) but,
>> by looking at the slides of your presentation
>>
>> http://web.novalis.org/talks/compliance-for-developers/slide-38.html
>>
>> I believe they are misinterpreting you.
There are a couple of factors here.
First, I screwed up in 2002. I've since set the PHPNuke copyright
holder straight, and you'll note that that article has a link to the
updated version. However, that updated page is still not 100% correct.
I have asked Burzi to change it, and he has not. Here's what my mail
to Burzin in the referenced ticket says:
>> The one thing I have issues with on that news page is
>> "And this copyright notice will be present on the generated pages
>> footer and in the HTML source as a Metatag called Generator. Those
>> messages are now compliant with the 2(c) section of the GPL license
>> and CAN'T BE REMOVED."
>>
>> As I said earlier, that's true for the front page ("most ordinary
>> way"), but not for the other pages.
Earlier mail in that ticket notes:
"2. If it were a (2)(c) notice [which it is now], it could be put into a
HTML comment..."
Second, even going by what I said in 2002 (which, I reiterate, is not
correct), I only mentioned copyright notices, not any of the other stuff.
I would appreciate it if you would let people know about this. I'll try
to find time to reference
-- -Dave "Novalis" Turner GPL Compliance Engineer Free Software Foundation
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muzishun
Senior Member
United States
1079 Posts |
Posted - 04 March 2005 : 17:51:25
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Here's the line that you are quoting about Snitz being released under the GPL. I've added emphasis to show where you agreed to the Snitz License agreement when you downloaded the software. You agreed to it. Please follow it and stop stirring up trouble.
quote:
Snitz Forums 2000 is a free product that is governed by the GPL. You are free to download and use these forums without charge, under the condition that you don't charge for it either, and that you keep the copyrights intact.
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Bill Parrott
Senior Web Programmer, University of Kansas
Co-Owner and Code Monkey, Eternal Second Designs (www.eternalsecond.com)
Personal Website (www.chimericdream.com) |
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Doug G
Support Moderator
USA
6493 Posts |
Posted - 04 March 2005 : 20:06:15
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Hey xyzzy, what exactly are you trying to accomplish? Maybe you'll get the FSF to say that the Snitz code is somehow outside the GPL, and then the Snitz copyright holders will have to issue a recall, and then no one can use Snitz legally any more, and the Snitz forums will close, and support for Snitz will stop, all because of you.
Is that what you want?
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Doug G
======
Computer history and help at www.dougscode.com |
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ruirib
Snitz Forums Admin
Portugal
26364 Posts |
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xyzzy
Starting Member
Italy
17 Posts |
Posted - 06 March 2005 : 12:32:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug G
Hey xyzzy, what exactly are you trying to accomplish?
Dear Doug G,
I want you to stop spreading misinformation about the GNU General Public License, that is, about the most important license of the Free Software Movement. You are draping yourselves in the flag of free software and then you "had plenty of sites either shut down, or the host told the user to either adhere to our license or have their site shutdown". It seems you are very proud of these acts. In contrast, I wonder how many of those were illegitimate and only due to the fact that you are mystifying the GPL and use it to attract users and then to restrict their freedom. Ever heard of FUD? It means spreading "Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt": hooking users with the word `GPL' and then persecute those that, rightfully, want to take advantage of the freedom it warrants falls in this category.
Here is, once again, the text in your download page:
quote:
Snitz Forums 2000 is a free product that is governed by the GPL [http://www.fsf.org/copyleft/gpl.html]. You are free to download and use these forums without charge, under the condition that you don't charge for it either, and that you keep the copyrights intact.
(For those who cannot tell the difference between a copyright notice and a "Powered by" logo and a "Link back" anchor: ... no, nothing... please ask someone in your group to explain to you what the difference is.)
You want your work to be respected and recognized the way you think is more appropriate: fine. Start by respecting the work and dedication of the tens of thousands who support the Free Software Movement by immediately stopping this abuse. Either you are distributing under the GPL or you are not doing it: if you do (and I claim you do) then remove the constraints that are incompatible with it (it is simply FUD that has no legal value whatsoever afterall); if you pretend you are not distributing under the GPL then please stop immediately abusing the GPL name and acronym.
This is, Doug G, what I am trying to accomplish and what I believe I will accomplish. I will check what the situation is in one week: if things have not changed radically I will (1) start distributing sf2k_v34_05_no_crappy_constraints.zip (it is based on software I have obtained under the GPL and I am legally allowed to do it) and (2) pursue this thing further with the Free Software Foundation (afterall you are abusing the GPL distributing software using its name and then have "plenty of sites either shut down [...]").
Best regards,
xyzzy
P.S. In topic.asp, function SearchHiLite(fStrMessage) says to be derived from HiLiTeR by 2eNetWorX. This is software distributed under the GPL, isn't it? Another question: under what license did you obtain the version of "ASP-DEv Forums" on which "Snitz Forums 2000" was originally based?
P.P.S. By the way, I would not mind receiving an apology for the insults listed below:
Rui Ribeiro wrote:
In fact I am not insinuating, I'm stating it [that you are in bad faith]
Richard Kinser wrote:
xyzzy (wonder why you don't post with your real name?)
We all know what your intentions were when you first decided to post here.
You like to take other people's work and try to pass it off as your own.
You aren't the first person to try to use our software illegally, and
definitely won't be the last.
Rui Ribeiro wrote again:
He may get support Richard, he just needs to register and post under a different name. Doesn't look like doing it will be much of a problem to Mr. xyzzy.
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muzishun
Senior Member
United States
1079 Posts |
Posted - 06 March 2005 : 14:14:16
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| So what you're saying is that you can change the "Powered By" text to show anything that you want. How is this not trying to pass software off as your own? You are quite blatently trying to take this code, remove any identifying information, and redistribute it as yours. |
Bill Parrott
Senior Web Programmer, University of Kansas
Co-Owner and Code Monkey, Eternal Second Designs (www.eternalsecond.com)
Personal Website (www.chimericdream.com) |
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cladon
Junior Member
Belgium
110 Posts |
Posted - 06 March 2005 : 14:42:23
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xyzzy You are wrong
As a teacher in a school I know my students have to follow the general rules by oure government AND the rules maded by our school.
The copyright holders of snitz are doing EXACT the same They follow the general rules of the GPL AND there own rules (the link back). |
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ruirib
Snitz Forums Admin
Portugal
26364 Posts |
Posted - 06 March 2005 : 15:02:47
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xyzzy, I won't apologize for that. I still think you're in bad faith.
I really don't care much about whether the GPL allows this the link back to Snitz or not, since I'm not even a copyright holder. The fact is that people who put their effort into developing Snitz want the link back here to be present, as a condition to use the software, and you plan to disrespect that. I see no difference in that from a situation where someone downloads a trial version of a software app and then keeps using it past the trial period without paying for it. In one case the payment is the link back, in the other it's the ammount you pay.
xyyzy you can distribute whatever you want. It will be no suprise to me, if you do it, as I said before and I state again! What you can indeed accomplish is the termination of support to everyone who uses Snitz, but I don't think that would matter much to you either.
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Snitz 3.4 Readme | Like the support? Support Snitz too |
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Shaggy
Support Moderator
Ireland
6780 Posts |
Posted - 07 March 2005 : 09:55:04
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Here's a crazy idea for you, Xyzzy, if you're so determined to distribute a forum script with "no crappy restrictions" so you can pass it off as your own work, why don't you write your own script then you can distribute it however you see fit?
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 Search is your friend
“I was having a mildly paranoid day, mostly due to the
fact that the mad priest lady from over the river had
taken to nailing weasels to my front door again.” |
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mios
Junior Member
United Kingdom
101 Posts |
Posted - 08 March 2005 : 08:17:39
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What makes me laugh about this topic is that snitz disregarded the original ASP-DEV forums (the code that snitz was derived from) GPL and added its own restrictions to it!
I don't know much about the GPL but I'm sure that even if link backs are permitted that taking some GPL code and adding restrictions to the license is not! |
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HuwR
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
20579 Posts |
Posted - 08 March 2005 : 08:49:07
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quote:
Originally posted by mios
What makes me laugh about this topic is that snitz disregarded the original ASP-DEV forums (the code that snitz was derived from) GPL and added its own restrictions to it!
I don't know much about the GPL but I'm sure that even if link backs are permitted that taking some GPL code and adding restrictions to the license is not!
Mios, you have tried to make this point once before /forum/topic.asp?topic_id=24862, and were then given the answer, if you still have a problem with the answer you were given, I suggest you contact the author of ASP-Dev who will put you straight. |
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HuwR
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
20579 Posts |
Posted - 08 March 2005 : 08:52:11
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| And xyzzy, don't forget, if you do decide to ignore our licence and distribute the forum code or use it yourself, you may not use any of the icons or smilies as they belong to Mike, who I am sure will not allow you to do so given your attitude over the link. |
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