| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
 Posted - 31 March 2003 : 11:42:46
|
I have no Moderator/Dev-Team rights by now. But there are a couple of things left:
1) Could someone please remove my special title from the profile. I don't want to look like I'm affiliated with Snitz team anymore.
2) As I'm a simple user now, if you reply to one of my locked topics I cannot answer. Don't do this unless you want to remove that freedom, or at least unlock the topic. I can have something to say as am member.
|
 Stop the WAR! |
|
|
HuwR
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
20604 Posts |
Posted - 31 March 2003 : 11:57:25
|
I am sorry Bozden, but I assumed you had locked the topic after posting it, it was not my intention to prevent you from replying, I just felt that some (not all of your comments) were incorrect and therefore required a response.
I was the one who locked the war topic though, not Mike or Richard (the US contingent), who were not around at the time it was discussed, so perhaps you should direct your censorship and freedom-of-speech concerns to me directly rather than making scathing accusations based on the nationality of the Snitz team |
 |
|
|
Reinsnitz
Snitz Forums Admin
USA
3545 Posts |
Posted - 31 March 2003 : 12:26:27
|
| Boz, I removed your moderator rights only becaus you asked me to. |
Reinsnitz (Mike) |
|
|
|
Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
Posted - 31 March 2003 : 13:04:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by reinsnitz
Boz, I removed your moderator rights only becaus you asked me to.
Sure. Thank you for your time and thank you for also removing the title. Actually I had to explain to the public that I requested the change. Thus, thank you for the explanation too..
|
Stop the WAR! |
|
|
|
Reinsnitz
Snitz Forums Admin
USA
3545 Posts |
Posted - 31 March 2003 : 13:13:47
|
 |
Reinsnitz (Mike) |
|
|
|
Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
Posted - 31 March 2003 : 18:46:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by HuwR
I was the one who locked the war topic though, not Mike or Richard (the US contingent), who were not around at the time it was discussed, so perhaps you should direct your censorship and freedom-of-speech concerns to me directly rather than making scathing accusations based on the nationality of the Snitz team
No, I don't think so. They were not "scathing accusations based on the nationality of the Snitz team". You falsify them, they are bare facts. Here are my points and my answers to the posting in http://forum.snitz.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=43036:
NOTE: "You" is meant plural throughout the whole post.
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I also believe, the war against Iraq is an international crime and I stated similar ideas a couple of times in the topic in the community discussions forum.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what ! what has this to do with Snitz. Are you resigning because you do not agree with war or because I locked the topic ?
It has everthing to do with free-speech, this is what the term "forum" stands for. I resigned because of the following:
- locking of the topics AND not allowing them again,
- deleting/moving restarted topics,
- threatening/treathing people on locking their accounts,
- putting some political agenda to the existence of the forums by adding the "coalition" flags to the logo (which is quite offensive for the international community)
- sending a one sided topic to a moderated forum and asking "not to post different opinions", deleting posts with "slightly" different opinions
- having my posts in that particular forum not accepted in the past
- you not being open minded enough and using your technical powers on people who don't have this,
- you assuming you have the right to do so and you not being capable of providing a global software
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Snitz is mainly US based and the political tendency of the copyright owners who are currently running the site proved to be pro-war. I did continue my tasks for another couple of weeks for the sake of my ideals, but today, war related topics got locked. In my opinion this is against the right of free-speech, if not censorship.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are totally wrong on this point, 2 of the copyright holders are American, that is it, the forum is based in the UK and the other 2 copyright holders are Dutch and English.
The Topic was lock by ME because it was no longer continuing in a civil and educated way because a few people were using for other purposes which will not be tolerated. It has nothing to do with censorship or freedom of speech.
Do you think that I don't know who is who? Let us read the sentence once again:
"Snitz is mainly US based"
- Snitz is based on asp-dev forums, Mike and John were working on it and Snitz got burn because of the low production rate there (well there may be other reasons but this is not our point). Mike started Snitz.
- Snitz started around v3.0 and came up to v3.4.04. The software, its language and its cultural emphasis is base on US-English.
So. What is "completely wrong" with this?
"the political tendency of the copyright owners who are currently running the site proved to be pro-war"
Well not a very good English sentence (I wrote this at 3 am), but:
- The political tendency of copyright owners had nothing to do with the development of an open source project and running a project site. Unfortunatelly it did effect.
- Of course also copyright owners has the right to express their ideas/feelings as any other member. But they are not privileged to impose their ideas on others. You are not in position to dictate what can be talked and what cannot be. This software is owned by the people, not by yourself.
- The posts of admins about these topics are evidence that they are pro-war (I said "who are currently running the site" thus excluded Pierre). They also changed the logo to include coalition flags (which make the war) into the very existence of Snitz. If it was meant to be a sorrow for all the lives that were lost in the war, I'd be the first one who would support that action (without the flags of course).
- I'm not sure on this (just courious and concerned): Did you get an aggreement of the artist who designed the logo? Otherwise it would be an infringement of his intellectual rights. In addition to the flags you also changed the colors.
So. What is "completely wrong" with this?
"The Topic was lock by ME because it was no longer continuing in a civil and educated way because a few people were using for other purposes which will not be tolerated. It has nothing to do with censorship or freedom of speech."
I'm with you that personal attacks must be avoided, and it has been done, and I also acted as it should be (see my posts in that topic).
But, you did forbid any further talks, didn't you? How would you call it? I would like to talk on the effects of the war on world, US and Turkey's economy, social structure, politics; talk about similar stuff out of my pocket of my intellectual existence. Now I (or any other person) can't! This is what I call "aginst freedom of speech".
Doug G, as the moderator of that forum, was moderating the topic quite cleverly. I'm sorry for him too...
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People say that "there are other places to talk about these issues", "Snitz is about creating forum software", "the rules will be put by those running the site".
These are absolutely wrong, at least in my case/in my opinion. Snitz is just a tool for me to achieve my ideals,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is a very one sided egotistical viewpoint, Snitz is a tool for EVERYONE, not just for you to achieve your ideals, that is not why most pople are here, they are here to help other people not themselves.
I actually know more about this as you might think. I don't know how to explain this. Idealizing the following:
quote:
The reason I've been giving my time to Snitz (for over 3 years) has been my ideals. For me, the Internationalized Snitz is an excellent tool for communication between cultures, and communication is the only necessary means for conflict resolution. Internationalized Snitz could also used to support diminishing cultures, languages and save them from being wiped out by the English language and/or other cultural effects like other countries or globalism. Unfortunately, latest Snitz version is far away from this ideals, so v4 is important.
You call this "a very one sided egotistical viewpoint"? I'm out of words now. Me, what I've been doing and egoism?
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kinds of ideas. This is the place I spent my major time, it was my "home" on the Internet. If I cannot speak freely in my "home", then I have to leave, otherwise I cannot sleep and I cannot look into the mirror.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At least you are able to do so, many many people are not.
If you mean I'm able to "speak freely", I actually don't. If you mean that I can sleep, I barely do while people from multiple countries are dying out there. If you mean that I can look into the mirror and keep my self-respect, yes I do.
What about you?
|
Stop the WAR! |
|
|
|
Reinsnitz
Snitz Forums Admin
USA
3545 Posts |
Posted - 31 March 2003 : 18:54:36
|
| I would like to put out a statement for the admins of this site, we are not Pro-War, we are anti-war, but do wish the safe return of the family and friends of those we know to their homes. That is what the Yellow ribbon stands for. If you want to infer more meaning into it you can do so, but that is all it means. |
Reinsnitz (Mike) |
|
|
|
HuwR
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
20604 Posts |
Posted - 31 March 2003 : 19:52:55
|
quote:
It has everthing to do with free-speech, this is what the term "forum" stands for. I resigned because of the following:
Actually according to the Oxford english dictionary it means a place for public discusion
quote:
locking of the topics AND not allowing them again,
deleting/moving restarted topics,
threatening/treathing people on locking their accounts,
putting some political agenda to the existence of the forums by adding the "coalition" flags to the logo (which is quite offensive for the international community)
sending a one sided topic to a moderated forum and asking "not to post different opinions", deleting posts with "slightly" different opinions
having my posts in that particular forum not accepted in the past
Once again, you are making some very broad assumptions as to how these forums are run, and as a moderator you should know that these are simply not true.
quote:
you not being open minded enough and using your technical powers on people who don't have this,
you assuming you have the right to do so and you not being capable of providing a global software
Abd this is not supposed to be an insult ?
quote:
The political tendency of copyright owners had nothing to do with the development of an open source project and running a project site. Unfortunatelly it did effect.
Of course also copyright owners has the right to express their ideas/feelings as any other member. But they are not privileged to impose their ideas on others. You are not in position to dictate what can be talked and what cannot be. This software is owned by the people, not by yourself.
The posts of admins about these topics are evidence that they are pro-war (I said "who are currently running the site" thus excluded Pierre). They also changed the logo to include coalition flags (which make the war) into the very existence of Snitz. If it was meant to be a sorrow for all the lives that were lost in the war, I'd be the first one who would support that action (without the flags of course).
I'm not sure on this (just courious and concerned): Did you get an aggreement of the artist who designed the logo? Otherwise it would be an infringement of his intellectual rights. In addition to the flags you also changed the colors.
Well, actually this is Mikes site, I was not asked by the community to host this site, I was asked by Mike, and if it wasn't for the generosity of a very few people, it would not be running at all, since I have to cover more than half the cost out of my own pocket.
I have every right to say what can and can't be discussed on this forum that is my privelage as Admin, and if I didn't like what was here, it is also my privelage as the host to shut the whole site down, I do not have to give a reason, or justify my actions, the site is not open source or governed by its rules.
quote:
you mean that I can look into the mirror and keep my self-respect, yes I do.
What about you?
I have no problem looking in the mirror, I only hope that some of my Iraqi friends will have the same freedom soon.
|
|
|
|
Pi
Starting Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 01 April 2003 : 10:49:19
|
Mike,
Thought it might be useful to mention a useful distinction I came across from NLP.
There is a big difference between the intention of a communication and the meaning of it.
In this case, your intention is what you had in YOUR mind about what the Yellow ribbon stands for.
The meaning, on the other hand, is created in the responses you get, in how it shows up for other people.
In this case the meaning of the communication is conflict between different sets of people on the Forum, people leaving the board, threads getting locked and deleted etc.
Personally, I found this a really useful communication distinction as it allows a person, to see, Mike, the gap between what you wanted to say and the extent to which that intention lands in the minds of others. Thus if your communication is having effects that were not wanted, you can perhaps change aspects of it to narrow the gap while still being true to your intention...
quote:
Originally posted by reinsnitz
I would like to put out a statement for the admins of this site, we are not Pro-War, we are anti-war, but do wish the safe return of the family and friends of those we know to their homes. That is what the Yellow ribbon stands for. If you want to infer more meaning into it you can do so, but that is all it means.
|
|
|
|
Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
Posted - 01 April 2003 : 10:51:10
|
It was not my intention to be insultive or destructive. I see your points but I think they are wrong. I stand behind my words.
Anyway, lets end this here. Keep up your good work.
|
Stop the WAR! |
|
|
|
HuwR
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
20604 Posts |
Posted - 01 April 2003 : 11:04:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Pi
Mike,
Thought it might be useful to mention a useful distinction I came across from NLP.
There is a big difference between the intention of a communication and the meaning of it.
In this case, your intention is what you had in YOUR mind about what the Yellow ribbon stands for.
The meaning, on the other hand, is created in the responses you get, in how it shows up for other people.
In this case the meaning of the communication is conflict between different sets of people on the Forum, people leaving the board, threads getting locked and deleted etc.
Personally, I found this a really useful communication distinction as it allows a person, to see, Mike, the gap between what you wanted to say and the extent to which that intention lands in the minds of others. Thus if your communication is having effects that were not wanted, you can perhaps change aspects of it to narrow the gap while still being true to your intention...
quote:
Originally posted by reinsnitz
I would like to put out a statement for the admins of this site, we are not Pro-War, we are anti-war, but do wish the safe return of the family and friends of those we know to their homes. That is what the Yellow ribbon stands for. If you want to infer more meaning into it you can do so, but that is all it means.
If you look in the 'Announcement' forum, you will notice that Mike made a post which clearly states his intentions for putting up the flags and ribbon, there is no ambiguity or miscomprehension. |
|
|
|
Pi
Starting Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 01 April 2003 : 15:53:58
|
I had looked, Huw, at what Mike wrote previously in the Announcements section. There is an intention to convey feelings of concern and safety for friends in the forces.
however, it comes with a support of the engagement (war)
" ... and free the oppressed people of Iraq in the face of objections by a few."
is received (by myself) as being clearly in favour of this war
and those who object to the war are few in number, both of which sadden me as they seem ,for me, incongruent with his statement in this Topic that he is not "Pro-war".
I personally find it tough to deal with those for whom I have great admiration in one context (the Board , how the community was run) being deeply troubled by them in another context (Mike's quote above).
Probably time for me to go, Grasshopper
Respectfully , Pi
|
|
|
|
Bookie
Average Member
USA
856 Posts |
Posted - 01 April 2003 : 16:09:20
|
Wow. I can't believe this is happening. Pretty soon, any open topic will result in a discussion about the war... pro-war, anti-war, blah blah blah.
I can see it now...
"I'm having a problem with my code..."
"Really? That's odd because I'm having problems with what's going on in Iraq. Let me tell you what I think..."
Can't we just let it go?! |
Participate in my nonsense |
|
|
|
RichardKinser
Snitz Forums Admin
USA
16655 Posts |
Posted - 01 April 2003 : 16:10:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bookie
Can't we just let it go?!
Unfortunately, it seems that some people can't. |
|
|
|
Reinsnitz
Snitz Forums Admin
USA
3545 Posts |
Posted - 01 April 2003 : 23:37:03
|
Thank you Bookie :) and Richard :)
Pi, that post only states facts, I'm not asking you to agree with what is going on, I'm not asking you to believe what we believe, but that statement is a simple fact of what the coalition of the willing (48 countries who have commited resources to the freeing of Iraq) are doing. You can be against the war, but hope it ends good, or you can just believe what the yellow ribbons stand for... safe return of those we love.
It's ok... no one will hate you for your beliefes here... we respect you and hope that those you know who are involved in the war also come home safe... it's amazing how many people we all know... and don't even know that we know them! :) |
Reinsnitz (Mike) |
|
|
|
Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
Posted - 02 April 2003 : 01:02:53
|
At least stop presenting your point of view about war. There are many people here who know that it is not about "freeing Iraq", that there are no such 48 countries and the flags do represent more than you say.
You can present your ideas and no one else can - this is quite unfair !
I also wait on the removal of the flags. People already saw them and they know your feelings.
|
Stop the WAR! |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
