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Dynamix
Junior Member
Germany
205 Posts |
 Posted - 26 March 2003 : 21:11:20
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quote:
Originally posted by RichardKinser
You are so completely wrong. 
Then are most german media are also wrong.  |
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Dynamix
Junior Member
Germany
205 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 21:15:26
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quote:
Originally posted by RichardKinser
The war will end when Saddam Hussein and everyone associated with him has been either killed or captured. Then, and only then, will this war end.
Something like that USA told the world about Vietnam and also about Somalia and again about Afghanistan (Bin Laden).
But fact is: since the 2nd world war USA never has won any war. And Bin Laden still is alive. Something like that will happen to Saddam. All the Governments which declared him in the years before (even the government in the US) has been changing, but Saddam is still the boss in his country... Thatīs why he was the real winner of the 1st Gulf war.
I hope things will end, and mojority opinion will change fast, because the US wonīt change anything for the people in the Iraq. |
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TestMagic
Senior Member
USA
1568 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 21:18:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Dynamix
quote:
Originally posted by TestMagic
Censorship, in its literal sense, must by definition occur in any civilization. The level and nature of censorship should be determined by each society, i.e., should be self-imposed. Finally I feel fairly comfortable in saying most or all of the democratic societies I have visited or lived in have an acceptable or tolerable level of censorship, and that this is truly only a minor issue in this whole controversy.
No, I do not agree with you. I think that I am old enough to decide by myself what I want to see. If I donīt want to see it, I can close my eyes. I even donīt like those pictures, but I also donīt like the pictures from the Iraqi soldiers or the people arrested on guantanamo. It is not fair to show those pictures and not to show the other side. War has an ugly face and not a clean one the US government wants to make believe the whole world. The world should know HOW ugly the war is and maybe then the pressure get hard enought to stop this horror.
Dynamix, I believe that our disagreement may be merely one of semantics; perhaps you and I disagree about the meaning of censorship. I mentioned censorship in its literal sense, i.e., the suppression of information because some people may consider it objectionable. By definition and by design, the media (i.e., that which comes in the middle) must eliminate some of the information it has. The exact replication of reality is essentially impossible, even if innumberable cameras, recorders, and other equipment were used to attempt to record it. From the seemingly infinite mass of information, companies must decide what to show its viewers. Naturally, societies make choices about what they'd like to see, and often, these decisions are made by the people, not by government institutions. Many or most films shown in the US, for example, follow a self-imposed censorship and rating system.
I suspect that there are types of censorship that we might agree on. I don't even feel comfortable describing what I would not like to see in the media, but at some point, we would likely agree.
But I suspect your point is something like this--if more Americans were to see these images, they might change their minds. And in that point, you may be right--some (don't know how many, though) might change their minds. But my next question is In what direction do you think they would change their minds? I suspect that such images would inflame many Americans, while scaring others, but again, I cannot speak for all of America.
One last thing, to everybody--I would just like to voice my respect for all (or most, anyway) of you here. This discussion has become a bit heated at times, which I suppose is to be expected, but in the end, I think that all of us are in the end much more alike than we are different. And remember why we all come to Snitz, the purpose of Snitz, and what we have learned here.
I honestly hope that all the respect that has been earned in these forums will remain, despite our differences in opinions. |
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seahorse
Senior Member
USA
1075 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 21:19:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Heynow777
Those of you opposing the actions of the United States and its allies. ... you quote Twain and other individuals...
Dwight D Eisenhower, a talented soldier and statesman who previously served under Generals George Marshall and Douglas MacArthur, led the successful Allied invasion of Europe in World War 2, and served the United States as President for 8 years.
Are you suggesting that President Eisenhower was wrong when he said, "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."?
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Alfred
Senior Member
USA
1527 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 21:23:43
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The first humanitarian relief shipments finally got through despite all efforts of the thugs to stop it, and a few coalition lives sacrificed to secure access.
But it is extremely hard to keep an open mind watching the population fight over the packages handed out from the trucks while listening to anti-American chants.
It is a real test for true compassion.
Just one more thing to give me pause. |
Alfred
The Battle Group
CREDO
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Heynow
Junior Member
374 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 21:23:57
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quote:
Originally posted by seahorse
quote:
Originally posted by Heynow777
Those of you opposing the actions of the United States and its allies. ... you quote Twain and other individuals...
Dwight D Eisenhower, a talented soldier and statesman who previously served under Generals George Marshall and Douglas MacArthur, led the successful Allied invasion of Europe in World War 2, and served the United States as President for 8 years.
Are you suggesting that President Eisenhower was wrong when he said, "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."?
Try reading my post again and if you still need help...please ask.. |
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Alfred
Senior Member
USA
1527 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 21:29:28
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quote:
Originally posted by RichardKinser
quote:
Originally posted by GauravBhabu
The polls you refer to do not give a true idea heynow777. Even if you refer to that then don't just restrict what Americans approve. When it is an International matter you need to look at the opinion of people in other countries as well.
What does it matter what the polls say? It's not like we are going to hold a public vote to see if we should go to war or not. We in the United States elect representatives to represent us. If the Congress (our elected officials) didn't want us to go to war, then they would not allow it. If a majority of the people don't feel that their representative is representing them adequately, then they won't be elected next time around.
Richard, some people confuse democracy with mob rule.
Nowhere more so than right where I live, the S.F. Bay area, with Berkeley at the helm.
The sane part of the population here calls it Berserkly. |
Alfred
The Battle Group
CREDO
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Dynamix
Junior Member
Germany
205 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 21:31:29
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quote:
Originally posted by RichardKinser
This war has nothing to do with Oil. The press in the United States can show whatever they want. The Media has agreed not to show the footage in question out of respect for the families of the individuals in question. You don't live in the United States, don't know why you think it affects you. I have no desire to see dead soldiers or soldiers who have been captured. I would be outraged if our Media had shown that footage. I don't watch news much at all though. Don't see the need. I know why we are at war, I know that we will win this war. I don't need daily updates (or hourly or by the minute, etc..).
I donīt live in the US, but I was there many times. And my gierfriend has a lot of familiy members in the US.
You are wrong, if you think it is a question out of respect for the families of the individuals, because the Army would know those facts very early and they could talk with the families. But they only try to make a secret out of those things. Thatīs nothing really new the world knwos such things from the US. And surely it is a war because of oil. Not only for that, but it is the major reason. Why doesnīt show the US some facts that the Iraq has those weapons the US want to make us all believe? They have no facts! Not only a single one!
I know why you and many others donīt look much TV at the moment: you donīt want to see the ugly face of the war! But that is the reality. If you say, you accept what your nation do then look at those things they already have done! Your nation canīt go and kill people and all people who have the power to stop this silly war can look away and sleep good. You HAVE to think about the things, because it is the fault of all people in the US. Throw away your mad president and stop this or at least fight against your government and then you have the right to sleep well. THATs the reason why many people in Europe go every day on the street and try to fight peaceful against our governments. Germany was on a good way, but even not hard enough. A good way to increase the pressure, would be an embargo against all american products in the EU. Then the US would be thinking about if itīs worth to to declare war to other countrys without an UN resolution. |
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Alfred
Senior Member
USA
1527 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 21:37:33
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quote:
Originally posted by TestMagic(snip)
[quote]Originally posted by Dynamix(snip)
Erin, you have my highest respect for your patience and restraint in view of the content of what you addressed. |
Alfred
The Battle Group
CREDO
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Heynow
Junior Member
374 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 21:39:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Dynamix
I donīt live in the US, but I was there many times. And my gierfriend has a lot of familiy members in the US.
You are wrong, if you think it is a question out of respect for the families of the individuals, because the Army would know those facts very early and they could talk with the families. But they only try to make a secret out of those things. Thatīs nothing really new the world knwos such things from the US. And surely it is a war because of oil. Not only for that, but it is the major reason. Why doesnīt show the US some facts that the Iraq has those weapons the US want to make us all believe? They have no facts! Not only a single one!
I know why you and many others donīt look much TV at the moment: you donīt want to see the ugly face of the war! But that is the reality. If you say, you accept what your nation do then look at those things they already have done! Your nation canīt go and kill people and all people who have the power to stop this silly war can look away and sleep good. You HAVE to think about the things, because it is the fault of all people in the US. Throw away your mad president and stop this or at least fight against your government and then you have the right to sleep well. THATs the reason why many people in Europe go every day on the street and try to fight peaceful against our governments. Germany was on a good way, but even not hard enough. A good way to increase the pressure, would be an embargo against all american products in the EU. Then the US would be thinking about if itīs worth to to declare war to other countrys without an UN resolution.
I assume you get your facts from aljazeera. The reason nothing has been found yet! Because there is a war in that country and Baghdad is still occupied.
If you stop the embargo, please don't ask for any aid...Thanks.
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Dynamix
Junior Member
Germany
205 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 21:40:55
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quote:
Originally posted by TestMagic
One last thing, to everybody--I would just like to voice my respect for all (or most, anyway) of you here. This discussion has become a bit heated at times, which I suppose is to be expected, but in the end, I think that all of us are in the end much more alike than we are different. And remember why we all come to Snitz, the purpose of Snitz, and what we have learned here.
I honestly hope that all the respect that has been earned in these forums will remain, despite our differences in opinions.
In this part we agree 100%!!
In the beginning of the discussion i said also something like this. I canīt choose always the best words, because my english is not good enough for that. But even if the discussion becomes heated I still havenīt anything against the people who live in the US and especially nothing against all you are here arround! I only completly disagree with George Bush & Co. and those kind of politic. I donīt like that and many people in Europe even donīt like it. But this still is only a discussion about politic. I like it sometimes to provoke, because after that some people tell more than without provocations. [;-] |
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Dynamix
Junior Member
Germany
205 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 21:48:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Heynow777
I assume you get your facts from aljazeera. The reason nothing has been found yet! Because there is a war in that country and Baghdad is still occupied.
No, I donīt get any facts from aljazeera. I only look at the internet and german media.
You are kidding? Before there wasnīt any war, George Bush told every day how many weapons the Iraq has. But he didnīt show a single fact. And that was his legitmation for war. And now you turn the story and tell it was nothing found BECAUSE there is war?
Iīm sure that after the war the CIA is going to Iraq, makes some installations and then the US will show us all the weapons of the Iraq. |
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RichardKinser
Snitz Forums Admin
USA
16655 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 21:49:49
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Dynamix, you are wasting your breath. You can rant and rave about how this war is about oil all you want, it isn't going to make it true. The United States Government does not control what the Media in the US shows on TV. We don't have state run TV like Iraq does. If ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, CNN, MSNBC, etc.. wanted to show the footage of dead US soldiers, they could have. In this case, they actually acted responsible, where as in other cases they do not. But, public opinion about their station would have been damaged if they had show it, which would hurt their bottom line. The Government had nothing to do with it. Again, rant and rave about it all you want, still isn't going to change the facts.
We happen to support our President (at least I do), I didn't vote for him, but I support his stance on Iraq. Why would we want to fight against our government? I don't really understand what you are trying to convey.
It is truly sad how ungrateful countries like Germany, France & Russia are. If not for the United States, they would not be where they are today. It is situations like the one in Iraq that got most of those countries in the predicaments that we had to bail them out of. And they have the gall to oppose us. |
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GauravBhabu
Advanced Member
4288 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 21:54:37
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quote:
Originally posted by RichardKinser
quote:
Originally posted by GauravBhabu
The polls you refer to do not give a true idea heynow777. Even if you refer to that then don't just restrict what Americans approve. When it is an International matter you need to look at the opinion of people in other countries as well.
What does it matter what the polls say? It's not like we are going to hold a public vote to see if we should go to war or not. We in the United States elect representatives to represent us. If the Congress (our elected officials) didn't want us to go to war, then they would not allow it.
quote:
If a majority of the people don't feel that their representative is representing them adequately, then they won't be elected next time around.
I don't agree. If a representative is not representing people adequately and his/her actions are such which are harmful to their interest, they don't have to suffer and wait until next election. |
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Heynow
Junior Member
374 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 21:56:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Dynamix
quote:
Originally posted by Heynow777
I assume you get your facts from aljazeera. The reason nothing has been found yet! Because there is a war in that country and Baghdad is still occupied.
No, I donīt get any facts from aljazeera. I only look at the internet and german media.
You are kidding? Before there wasnīt any war, George Bush told every day how many weapons the Iraq has. But he didnīt show a single fact. And that was his legitmation for war. And now you turn the story and tell it was nothing found BECAUSE there is war?
Iīm sure that after the war the CIA is going to Iraq, makes some installations and then the US will show us all the weapons of the Iraq.
This has been answered in previous posts.
Here is more news for you.
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/iraq/timeline.htm
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/3/3/153319.shtml |
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