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Originally posted by Alfred

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It will be lot easier to understand if you write what you mean. Each of my remark were in response to what you wrote.

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Unfortunately, your responses are often a reflection of what you think others mean, and a result of the language barrier.
My English is clear enough for anyone in command of the language, and the only way to make you grasp the finer nuances of my arguments is to speak your tongue, for which there is no time to learn now.

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Originally posted by GauravBhabu

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Originally posted by Alfred

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It will be lot easier to understand if you write what you mean. Each of my remark were in response to what you wrote.

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Unfortunately, your responses are often a reflection of what you think others mean, and a result of the language barrier.
My English is clear enough for anyone in command of the language, and the only way to make you grasp the finer nuances of my arguments is to speak your tongue, for which there is no time to learn now.

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In most of your posts, when you are not understood or you cannot understand, you always come up with a Language Barrier for others. Finer nuances of your arguments...huh. If you lack the ability to express straight then it is your problem and not of others.

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Originally posted by HuwR

now now children, lets not start getting personal

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can draw their own conclusions

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Originally posted by bjlt

they may hav WMD but where is it? I see Mr Rumsfeld supported the sale of bio to Iraq does it mean he's selling it now? That might be true but do you have solid proof?

What you said is true but I failed to see the importance to have a war now. not only me, billions of people out there.

Here's one suggests that they may have some, but not enough.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,922158,00.html

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Originally posted by Alfred

Yesterday, in response to one of my arguments I was asked these three questions:

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1) Do you think youngsters' ideas are not worth to hear?
2) Do you think people on this world are equal? Or, are US citizens are more equal than the others?
3) Do you believe that people from 3rd World are less valuable?

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After the initial shock I was optimistic enough to consider it a misunderstanding, and somehow was able to exercise the discipline to respond in good will:

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On your questions, I will give you the benefit of doubt, and put them down to difficulty of communication.
In that positive spirit I will try to explain something to you - in very basic terms.
Try to read the words and understand what they say, not what you think they say.

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1) Do you think youngsters' ideas are not worth to hear?

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The reference to the brainwashed youngster in a third world country has no correlation to your insinuation of discounting a young person's ability to think for himself.
As a matter of fact I will always listen before making that judgment, because in my many years I have run into plenty of idiots of all ages.
Which means that maturity is not necessarily a matter of age, but one of intellect.
The reference was simply made on the basis that a young mind can be influenced easier than an old one.

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2) Do you think people on this world are equal? Or, are US citizens are more equal than the others?

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This probably is part of the misunderstanding caused by a foreign language.
But I will try:

No. How long have you been around?
Surely you must have noticed that not all people are equal.
For whatever reasons, like everything else in nature, there are differences, and some people have less human values than others.
And some of those are an outright curse to mankind.

But at birth all human beings are equally deserving of the right to a decent life, wherever that may be.
The fact that I consider someone lucky to live in this country is not any reflection on that persons deserving, only on his good fortune.
There are many people in the world, living under miserable conditions (Iraqis under Saddam?), who may be much more deserving to live here than some of those who do.

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3) Do you believe that people from 3rd World are less valuable?

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This kind of question is called "impertinence" - kind of like "putting words into my mouth".
I will overlook it again and excuse it with the language barrier.
Hopefully, after reading my response above you don't really need an answer to this question.

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However, the response

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No, I read and did understand them (I read all three posts to try to understand why there are so much). I'm just using my right "not to comment" on them...

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should have shown me their true intent.
After clarifying plainly that these questions were totally unjustified, the writer chose to "just using my right not to comment on them...".

Today I see this in a much clearer light.

• I see it as the conscious effort to insult my sense of justice and fair thinking.
• I see it as the pure agitation they were meant to be.
• I feel disgusted and insulted.
  

Shame on the writer.

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Originally posted by Doug G

Secretary Powell just strongly confirmed to a congressional panel that the US will not allow the UN to be the "center of gravity" in any reconstruction efforts in Iraq. He stated the US will control the reconstruction.

Kind of related.

http://www.forbes.com/business/energy/newswire/2003/03/26/rtr920534.html

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Originally posted by sy


If its about WMD, then it doesn't take an army or a regime to deliver WMD ...(snip)...if you think this is the reason for this war, then we as the coalition are using a steamroller to try kill a fly.
Maybe this war is to liberate a nation who's population is being oppressed and killed by the governing state, well, this is the only reason I can clearly see which would make this aggression valid in any way at the moment, to me at least,...

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now we are seeing the deaths of civlians heavily increasing.

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• Forcing them at gunpoint to sacrifice their lives to the opposing forces - they face death either way!
• Using women and children as human shields!
• Using civilians with white flags to bait and ambush the enemy!
• putting military assets in the midst of civilian areas!

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Just how many generations of Iraqi's who have lost loved ones in these wars will it take to forget about who it was killed their kin, and rejoice in their liberation?

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Originally posted by Alfred

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Originally posted by sy


If its about WMD, then it doesn't take an army or a regime to deliver WMD ...(snip)...if you think this is the reason for this war, then we as the coalition are using a steamroller to try kill a fly.
Maybe this war is to liberate a nation who's population is being oppressed and killed by the governing state, well, this is the only reason I can clearly see which would make this aggression valid in any way at the moment, to me at least,...

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You have a good point there, sy.
I have the feeling that this one particular motivation is what lies underneath all the other given reasons, valid or not.
But I can well imagine how much more of an uproar going in just on that motivation alone would have created.
The cause would still have been a just one, and worthy of support simply to put an end to the suffering of the millions over there.

But at this time we are still too much in the dark over the urgency of the other reasons.
They may or may not be a priority, but IF they are we certainly were lucky that some people had the foresight to recognize them and the resolve to do something about it.
Remember Lord Chamberlain's mistakes?

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now we are seeing the deaths of civlians heavily increasing.

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Yes, which is always a sad side effect of wars.
But always remember that no mishaps or errors or malfunctions of weaponry can ever equal the WANTON killing of their own people, even as we speak.

• Forcing them at gunpoint to sacrifice their lives to the opposing forces - they face death either way!
• Using women and children as human shields!
• Using civilians with white flags to bait and ambush the enemy!
• putting military assets in the midst of civilian areas!

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Just how many generations of Iraqi's who have lost loved ones in these wars will it take to forget about who it was killed their kin, and rejoice in their liberation?

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Hopefully, they will make that distinction.

In 1945 I was a little boy in war-torn Vienna, and remember when my older brother was marched at gunpoint by Nazi officials to the southern outskirts of the city to "stop" the liberation forces of the Allies.
He was one of the lucky ones who escaped.

I am 64 now, and still grateful for my liberation from the Nazis, which allowed me to lead a life without the oppression my people faced then.
Alfred.

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Originally posted by bozden
...I'm sure they were caused by my mistake about your spelling of your name ...(snip).. You seemed quite sensitive...(snip)

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It was not a conscious effort to insult your sense of justice and fair thinking, I am very sorry that you felt disgusted and insulted (there was no such intent).

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On the other hand, I admit that my posts here are a bit agitative. But isn't it the idea behind a debate? If all of us were supporting the same thing, would it be a debate?

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• The tools
• the intellect
• the good will

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It is quite educative for me to hear your ideas, feel your fears etc.

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Originally posted by Dynamix

To show that US-TV is not really free, I will digitze the next reports which are coming up and which will officially not be shown in US TV. After this Iīll put them into WWW and post the link over all newsgroups and Filesharing-Tools. That would be that way how US propaganda wonīt work. Some TV stations in Germany are telling now that some pictures where shown in the US and the public opinion is beginning to change. This mad president will get under pressure and thatīs the only way to stop this crazy war for oil.

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