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bjlt
Senior Member
1144 Posts |
 Posted - 26 March 2003 : 02:07:55
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quote:
Originally posted by seahorse
bjlt,
I understand where you are going with your comments, but I would argue that those indirect benefits are insufficient to justify the war.
I think you will agree that war is expensive. I don't believe that there is a economic calculation that proves that war results in profit. True SOME may benefit, bu the majority lose.
Yes I agree war is expensive and it's no good to calculate it that way. and sorry I used the word profit, allow my bad English.
When I say indirect benefits, it involves everything, basically, it means if it's worth doing (with the specific input) or not. In a democratic country if it's not it won't be passed or later the government is in trouble.
quote:
If war always resulted in profit, no one would be at peace.
Unfortunaltely that's some people think and do. It seems war results prifits for them. 
This reminds me one thing, I was told in the war between Iraq and Iran, the US supported Iraq with money and equipments, I'm not sure about it, would anyone clarify on this? And how's Sadam then, was he a dictator and as evil as now or not? It would be good if I'm mistake on this one or it's just a rumor or propaganda here.
I know my country has propaganda and censorship a lot and on certain things it's not trust worthy, then I pay more attention to get the correct info if I'm interested in such things, yet I can't avoid propanganda and misinfo. While I do think it's the same for people with free media, they get propaganda and misinfo as easily too. |
Edited by - bjlt on 26 March 2003 02:14:12 |
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seahorse
Senior Member
USA
1075 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 02:10:11
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quote:
well, spending on research/produce of weapons is a public expenditure. when the government spends 1$ it's paid to someone then he can use the 1$ to consume or invest, which results more consuming and investment. Them factor is different in each country but usually it's more than 1$. It can boost the economy but not always, if the economy is highly depends on public expenditures there might be a problem.
And result of research of weapons could be used in other ways which is also a benefit of the expenditure, we know how tech developed in WWII.
Ah, I see where you are going. Yes, it is true that spending on military research may have side benefits to the US economy. However, you should remember that non-military research is more effective in producing economic growth and commercial products.
The difference here is that war spending usually does not provide those benefits. War spending covers bombs, fuel, soldier pay, food, etc. It's just a cost. It costs $15,000/hour to fly an F-15 (fuel, maintenance, mechanic/pilot pay, etc.- AirForces Monthly) Flying that F-15 will not result in scientific advances that improve the US economy.
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Ken
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Worldwide Partner Group
Microsoft |
Edited by - seahorse on 26 March 2003 02:18:52 |
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Doug G
Support Moderator
USA
6493 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 02:22:54
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Selected quotes from http://www.twainquotes.com/ , http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Mark_Twain and other sources follow for your reading enjoyment :)
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.
Mark Twain
Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.
Mark Twain
Honesty is the best policy - when there is money in it.
Mark Twain
Advertisements contain the only truths to be relied on in a newspaper.
Mark Twain
I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying that I approved of it.
Mark Twain
In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination.
Mark Twain
Often it does seem a pity that Noah and his party did not miss the boat.
Mark Twain
Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.
Mark Twain
The human race has one really effective weapon, and that is laughter.
Mark Twain
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform.
Mark Twain
It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress.
Mark Twain
True irreverence is disrespect for another man’s god.
Mark Twain
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass.
Mark Twain
Where prejudice exists it always discolors our thoughts.
Mark Twain
Fleas can be taught nearly anything that a Congressman can.
Mark Twain
(from chap. 9 "The Mysterious Stranger", 1916)
"There has never been a just one, never an honorable one -- on the part of the instigator of the war. I can see a million years ahead, and this rule will never change in so many as half a dozen instances. The loud little handful -- as usual -- will shout for the war. The pulpit will -- warily and cautiously -- object -- at first; the great, big, dull bulk of the nation will rub its sleepy eyes and try to make out why there should be a war, and will say, earnestly and indignantly, "It is unjust and dishonorable, and there is no necessity for it." Then the handful will shout louder. A few fair men on the other side will argue and reason against the war with speech and pen, and at first will have a hearing and be applauded; but it will not last long; those others will outshout them, and presently the anti-war audiences will thin out and lose popularity. Before long you will see this curious thing: the speakers stoned from the platform, and free speech strangled by hordes of furious men who in their secret hearts are still at one with those stoned speakers -- as earlier -- but do not dare to say so. And now the whole nation -- pulpit and all -- will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open. Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception."
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Doug G
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Computer history and help at www.dougscode.com |
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Nathan
Help Moderator
USA
7664 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 02:27:19
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quote:
Originally posted by RichardKinser
so you answered why you present your opinions as fact, and why you think that others are not in a position to judge, but you somehow are. Sorry, reading your response above I just don't see it.
An opinion, presented as fact. . . and so is this. 
From my perspective, facts and truth only exist in the physical sciences (Physics, Chemistry, Biology ect) |
 Nathan Bales
CoreBoard | Active Users Download |
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seahorse
Senior Member
USA
1075 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 02:38:13
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Doug,
LOL  Since when have you started reading Twain? |
Ken
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Worldwide Partner Group
Microsoft |
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Posted - 26 March 2003 : 02:48:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Nathan
...
From my perspective, facts and truth only exist in the physical sciences (Physics, Chemistry, Biology ect)
Actually they are also questionable, because with time passing, our knowledge increases and we correct our older "mistakes".
So, "suspect" is the main item in scientific approach and my previous answer was based on it .
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seahorse
Senior Member
USA
1075 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 02:51:36
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quote:
Actually, I was under the impression that our views were much closer than they are to a couple or three others in here...
We do and we don't.
I would not have chosen invading Iraq, if given the choice.
Now that we're committed, I cannot help but support our troops.
Yes, we do agree on several points regarding Saddam and his regeime.
Regardless of if we completely agree or not, I would hope that we retain a positive opinion of each other despite any differences in opinions.
It is something that I hope all the participants of this thread can agree on.
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Ken
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Worldwide Partner Group
Microsoft |
Edited by - seahorse on 26 March 2003 04:27:10 |
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RichardKinser
Snitz Forums Admin
USA
16655 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 02:52:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Nathan
quote:
Originally posted by RichardKinser
so you answered why you present your opinions as fact, and why you think that others are not in a position to judge, but you somehow are. Sorry, reading your response above I just don't see it.
An opinion, presented as fact. . . and so is this.
From my perspective, facts and truth only exist in the physical sciences (Physics, Chemistry, Biology ect)
Nathan, I was not asking you the question, I was asking bozden. |
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bjlt
Senior Member
1144 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 03:16:49
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quote:
Originally posted by bozden
quote:
I was told in the war between Iraq and Iran, the US supported Iraq with money and equipments, I'm not sure about it, would anyone clarify on this?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,866942,00.html
http://www.ips-dc.org/iraq/primer4.htm#35
Thanks for the info,
quote:
Declassified papers leave the White House hawk exposed over his role during the Iran-Iraq war
Julian Borger in Washington
Tuesday December 31, 2002
The Guardian
The Reagan administration and its special Middle East envoy, Donald Rumsfeld, did little to stop Iraq developing weapons of mass destruction in the 1980s, even though they knew Saddam Hussein was using chemical weapons "almost daily" against Iran, it was reported yesterday.
US support for Baghdad during the Iran-Iraq war as a bulwark against Shi'ite militancy has been well known for some time, but using declassified government documents, the Washington Post provided new details yesterday about Mr Rumsfeld's role, and about the extent of the Reagan administration's knowledge of the use of chemical weapons.
The details will embarrass Mr Rumsfeld, who as defence secretary in the Bush administration is one of the leading hawks on Iraq, frequently denouncing it for its past use of such weapons.
The US provided less conventional military equipment than British or German companies but it did allow the export of biological agents, including anthrax; vital ingredients for chemical weapons; and cluster bombs sold by a CIA front organisation in Chile, the report says.
Thanks god that Mr Rumsfeld is matured now, my question is how many out there in the US government aren't matured yet? Never mind, they are always doing the right things. |
Edited by - bjlt on 26 March 2003 03:48:52 |
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Doug G
Support Moderator
USA
6493 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 03:36:30
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quote:
Originally posted by seahorse
Doug,
LOL Since when have you started reading Twain?
Not to claim I'm older than dirt or anything, I read and re-read most of Mark Twain probably before most members here were born (i.e., >40 years ago)  |
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Doug G
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Computer history and help at www.dougscode.com |
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seahorse
Senior Member
USA
1075 Posts |
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4116 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 04:06:22
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bjlt, please don't change the older posts so frequently. If you need to, please indicate what you changed. It's quite tiring to search what has been changed and trying to remember how it was before .
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Stop the WAR! |
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seahorse
Senior Member
USA
1075 Posts |
Posted - 26 March 2003 : 04:35:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug G
quote:
Originally posted by seahorse
Doug,
LOL Since when have you started reading Twain?
Not to claim I'm older than dirt or anything, I read and re-read most of Mark Twain probably before most members here were born (i.e., >40 years ago)
You're closer to my Dad's age I suspect. When were you in the service? Dad didn't serve in Vietnam, he was in during the Cuban missle crisis.  |
Ken
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Worldwide Partner Group
Microsoft |
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