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Gremlin
General Help Moderator
New Zealand
7528 Posts |
 Posted - 22 July 2005 : 00:38:49
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Good code is self documenting, bad programmers write more comments than code to hide their poor coding decisions.
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Edited by - Gremlin on 22 July 2005 00:39:34 |
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HuwR
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
20584 Posts |
Posted - 22 July 2005 : 04:12:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Gremlin
Good code is self documenting, bad programmers write more comments than code to hide their poor coding decisions.
Exactly.
Good code is NOT in the eyes of the beholder, just because you think you wrote good code doesn't make it so.< |
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MarcelG
Retired Support Moderator
Netherlands
2625 Posts |
Posted - 22 July 2005 : 06:25:56
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But commenting your code makes it a lot easier for 'n00bs' like me to understand what you're actually doing.
And indeed ; a lot of sloppy coding has been done by me and ended up on SnitzBitz and here.< |
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Shaggy
Support Moderator
Ireland
6780 Posts |
Posted - 22 July 2005 : 06:48:24
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quote:
Originally posted by -gary
The problem I see for myself and a few others is that there is no beta forum to post mods in.
That's what the Mod W/O Code forum is for but people don't really seem to use it for beta testing, I've seen far too many betas just thrown straight into the W/Code forum over the years.
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Podge
Support Moderator
Ireland
3775 Posts |
Posted - 22 July 2005 : 08:21:40
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I think this thread is a good thing. I apologise in advance if I go off topic a bit.
I've watched the discussion here and refrained from posting mainly because I don't release mods but I have to agree with Gary about the documentation. Its good programming practice to document what you're doing and why. If the code is not documented properly then a programmer reviewing it or making changes to it is more likely to make incorrect assumptions or mistakes. I would be willing to help out documenting mods if required.
It is my opinion also that there are some mods which have stood the test of time and I believe should be incorporated into the base Snitz code for the following reasons;
1. It would ensure that they are added properly as the code would be reviewed by the mods here at Snitz
2. It would reduce the amount of posts (mostly about the same problems) in the Help: MOD Implementation forum
3. They are already present in the base code for other forums
I don't think its fair to expect non-programmers who want to install Snitz to be able to make the required changes to add a mod without problems. Any installation should be made as easy as possible and assume that the person adding it has limited programming abilities.
I realise that the people who started Snitz had these (and more) objectives
1. To improve the asp-dev forums
2. To learn asp while doing it
3. That Snitz should be able to be run on as many systems & be compatable with as many database servers as possible
All worthy objectives but IMHO things have changed slightly since then and I'm not entirely sure what direction Snitz should take for the future.
Finally, the admins here have already dedicated a lot of their personal time to help others and make Snitz better and I don't think its fair to expect them to dedicate more (unless they are willing).
Maybe a solution would be for the admins to create some teams or workgroups which have responsibilty for different things e.g. documentation, internationalization (I know it exists already), moving to css, adding verified mods to the base code, etc. and oversee their progress?< |
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D3mon
Senior Member
United Kingdom
1685 Posts |
Posted - 22 July 2005 : 08:51:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Gremlin
Good code is self documenting, bad programmers write more comments than code to hide their poor coding decisions.
I completely agree. Well structured code, using proper variable, function names etc. should leave any reasonably accomplished developer with no doubt as to what is happening within the code. Where it is not immediately obvious what is happening in a short section of code, concise comments provide additional support.
Perhaps the overall question is: Should someone with no development knowledge whatsoever be attempting to install mods? In an attempt to make this possible, are we simply chasing the end of the rainbow?< |
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Edited by - D3mon on 22 July 2005 08:52:17 |
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rpainter
Junior Member
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - 22 July 2005 : 09:37:32
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quote:
Perhaps the overall question is: Should someone with no development knowledge whatsoever be attempting to install mods? In an attempt to make this possible, are we simply chasing the end of the rainbow?
Well, every time someone asks a question about people doing MODs for them, the answer always seems to be to try it your self first. I think that is one of the great things about Snitz (at least for me). I was a complete newbie to all things ASP before Snitz. I had no development knowledge, but fumbled my way through it. At one time you had no development knowledge. We all have to learn. Should I be penalized because I have no web development background? The great thing, and why I chose to use Snitz over others, is that the community here is very active and does not mind helping us poor souls who are not programmers by trade.
If you don't want to teach, don't teach. But, I don't think that we "chase rainbows" simply because we ask for better instructions and documentation so that we can learn to "see" what is happening in the code.< |
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Panhandler
Average Member
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 22 July 2005 : 10:11:41
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Also, you need to think about your audience - Who will be trying to implement your mod.
You get "help me set up my forum" requests all the time.
Those users (me) next attempt to implement a mod.
"Cut & paste" doesn't quite work if the coder dosen't tell the user that they must remove the _ from the &_ on the prior code line.
. . . add a response.write to the next line.
I would argue that Snitz Mods should be written with basic beginner in mind.
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-gary
Development Team Member
406 Posts |
Posted - 22 July 2005 : 10:44:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Shaggy
quote:
Originally posted by -gary
The problem I see for myself and a few others is that there is no beta forum to post mods in.
That's what the Mod W/O Code forum is for but people don't really seem to use it for beta testing, I've seen far too many betas just thrown straight into the W/Code forum over the years.
I don't get that at all. Maybe you're either reading something into what's not there or you know something that us casual readers don't? I'm just assuming that W/Code means With Code and W/O Code means Without Code. Do they mean something else?
MOD Add-On Forum (W/Code)
If you have developed a Modification to Snitz Forums 2000, Then this is the place to post your code, and help others who have posted their code to refine theirs for possible future inclusion in the base line code.
MOD Add-On Forum (W/O Code)
If you have and Idea for a Modification to Snitz Forums 2000, Then this is the place to post it! You can help others who have posted their ideas to actually make the MODs and also for possible future inclusion in the base line code!
One is the catch-all for every mod and the other is for someone to post ideas. If I write one line of code, then I feel compelled to post it in W/Code. Might be a crappy piece of code that should never be implemented by anyone and only works with one specific database. That would be the idea behind a tested and approved forum.
As for documentation, if you can't already see the need for clear and abundant documentation, then you'll never see the need. And I don't mean comments. Well documented code is very different from heavily commented code. I've worked on dozens of projects taken over from others for the last 10-12 years and each time it pains me to realize that I'm not a very good mind reader.< |
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MarcelG
Retired Support Moderator
Netherlands
2625 Posts |
Posted - 22 July 2005 : 11:25:03
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Well, for the mods I created I allways tried to make a as well-documented step-by-step walkthrough.
The biggest problem I'm facing is that - I think - most of my code gets the job done, but is no where near optimized. Too many queries, inefficient use of arrays and stuff like that.
I never understood arrays, and I also never understood - still don't - RegExp's.
I know I should dive into it, but still... There are some people here who actually do know how to code, and there are people like me who want to try.
And, and this is the category of users who use the mods, there's the group of people who want to add functionality to their forum, without knowing anything of ASP.
I know it's a challenge, but I too think that thát last group is the intended audience of the mods. They should be able to add the mod to at least the basecode.
Like said before, a major drawback of the lean and mean basecode is that yhe majority of the users will want to add some mods right away. And, those popular mods (like polls, events, avatars, active users and private messages) 'interfere' with one another, in terms of linenumbers/pieces of code.
That's why I agree with sr_erick on adding some of the mods to the basecode.
Certainly not all of them - we don't want to create a CrashCode/GML/SHN forum as basecode, but some should be in the basecode, in my opinion.
It will not only make life a lot easier for the new users, but it will also broaden the 'market' for Snitz.
I know Snitz has no commercial interest in that, but the community is what's keeping this forum alive. And with bigger installed base, the community grows, resulting in more support, resulting in better code etc.< |
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Edited by - MarcelG on 22 July 2005 11:28:08 |
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Davio
Development Team Member
Jamaica
12217 Posts |
Posted - 22 July 2005 : 16:07:29
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Huwr, not really sure why you are appalled. Mods are created for the snitz forums by non-programmers. People who try to get what they want done for their forum but couldn't. We can't expect the mods here to be at some level of programming professionalism (say that 3 times fast).
I have been installing mods for persons, that after looking at the code, I have to rewrite everything because the coding was terrible. It's a lot work for me yes, but someone started it and worked hard to produce the mod that worked. They were just helping by giving back something to the community.
The mods are there for people to improve on. If a mod is coded terribly, then a more experienced coder can code it correctly and release it.
We don't have a standard of who can create mods. Any Joe or Jane can create a mod if they take some time to learn vbscript.
I would be a bit distressed about it, yes, but appalled Huwr?
Alright, you're appalled. So how about we do something about it then?
Or are we just encouraging mod authors to code better or learn more VBScript?< |
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HuwR
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
20584 Posts |
Posted - 22 July 2005 : 16:20:13
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I was appaled at the percentage that required extensive twiddling to get working, I don't expect everything I download to be perfect, far from it, just that there seemed to be a lot more than I would normally expect.
I still don't think we should install them as part of a base snitz, but maybe we should have some kind of seal of approval that a MOD works with all db's and that the install instructions do at least reflect the steps required to succesfully instal the mod.< |
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Soar
Junior Member
USA
197 Posts |
Posted - 22 July 2005 : 16:29:26
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From a different perspective…I’m not a professional programmer. One of the benefits that drew me to Snitz was that it offered the opportunity for me to learn ASP.
From that point of view, I would greatly welcome some kind of review of any mods I submit. Not only does the entire community benefit, but so would each author – so long as the review was more than a “thumbs-up, thumbs-down” review.
What I would like to see are reviews that not only point out the problems with a mod or determine that it’s “Snitz Approved”, but provide some degree of information as to how it should be done when it is deemed “not good enough”. For those of us that are no where near the proficiency level of those who would be doing the reviews, it would be a wonderful teaching tool if the review gave some snippets of alternative code for parts of the mod that were inefficiently coded, provided a brief statement of how it can be improved, or something similar. Likewise, if the documentation is the issue, an explanation of why it is deficient would be a big help.
I don’t think the majority of the “bad” mods are done out of poor habits or laziness – at least for those of us, like me, who are trying to learn. It’s more a case of not knowing how. I think reviews could be a big help in that regard.< |
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Davio
Development Team Member
Jamaica
12217 Posts |
Posted - 22 July 2005 : 16:35:31
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I was of the mind that if we planned to have a particular feature or mod to be part of the forum, that quite a bit of the mod would be rewritten or modified to be put in the base code. We wouldn't have to start from scratch. We would use some or most of the coding done from the mod.
I'm pessimistic about having a group review mods and giving it an approval. The attendance and participation here is not what it used to be. But I'm always willing to give something a try.  < |
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AnonJr
Moderator
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 22 July 2005 : 16:57:20
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I'm a little leery of group review due to the great potential for "death by committee."
But I do agree with the fact that some mods are harder to implement than they should be. As a reasonably experienced programmer (no Bill Gates/Steve Jobs/whoever you consider a "great"), I can more often than not figure out how to fix the problem. However, I think what is at the heart of all this is that Snitz isn't as MOD-friendly as we would like it to be.
BEFORE I GET FLAMED/SPAMED/ETC
I love this software. I've tried moving away twice, but nothing was quite good enough to justify it. I love the fact that it is open, modifiable, and there are MODs for the asking...
I just think that it may be time to re-factor the code and make it more modular - and thus more MOD-friendly. You could then say "Include this function here, here, and here; then call it between these functions here, here, and here." or "Add this to function x, and don't forget to pass this value."
Not all MODs will work with all databases - but it will be easier to give and follow instructions.
I won't lie. This won't be an easy or short task. Many will offer to help, and few will. I was considering doing this and then telling everyone about it since it was something I was going to have to do for the site at work anyway. If anyone helps great. If not, just don't expect it any time soon. If it is something that people would want, I'll re-factor the forum then add the rest of the LMS code I'm developing.
Anyway, I figure I've been on the sidelines for too long. There's my two cents.< |
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Topic |
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Rant about MODS
