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Classicmotorcycling
Development Team Leader
Australia
2084 Posts |
 Posted - 14 September 2005 : 07:24:41
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Hello,
I am having an issue with a club I used you host a website for and thought that I might get a few thoughts from others on the subject.
I registered a domain in 2001 and advised a club that they could lease the domain name from me as long as they hosted with me. This year they decided that they would host else where and then when I advised them that they could not take the domain name, they tried to get my hosting company to set it up in their account that they took with my hosting company.
My hosting company asked me for my permission before doing anything and I said no to them. I have now had grief from the club more than a couple of times a day since Sunday here in Australia.
My question is, do you think I have a moral obligation to give them the domain name as they say I should give it to them, or should I do as I am doing and selling the domain name to the highest bidder as I am the owner? I had offered the domain name to the club to purchase, but insist that I should give them the domain name, and it is bad for my name by not giving it to them.
I have all correspondence from back then on the terms of the hosting and the term "leasing" from me was used before setting up the hosting for the club.
Am I in the right or the wrong?
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Cheers,
David Greening |
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Shaggy
Support Moderator
Ireland
6780 Posts |
Posted - 14 September 2005 : 07:31:38
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If they do not want to purchase it for you then I (at least personally) don't see a moral issue to hanging on to it yourself or offering it up for sale. You entered into an agreement when you originally set everything up for them and you are perfectly entitled to hold them to that agreement.
One thing I will advise you to do though, is check your legal standing in relation to .com.au domains (I'm assuming it's a .com.au), they may be legally allowed take the domain from you, if it comes to that but having offered it to them to purchase will go in your favour and any ruling that states they are legally entitled to that domain should also rule that you are entitled to remuneration.
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Mr Pink
Junior Member
United Kingdom
387 Posts |
Posted - 14 September 2005 : 08:10:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Classicmotorcycling
Hello,
My question is, do you think I have a moral obligation to give them the domain name as they say I should give it to them, or should I do as I am doing and selling the domain name to the highest bidder as I am the owner? I had offered the domain name to the club to purchase, but insist that I should give them the domain name, and it is bad for my name by not giving it to them.
No, I don't think you have a moral obligation to give them the name. I think you've done the right thing in offering them the domain to buy. They should have thought about this before they set up their site. |
Martin
Leyland Forum Leyland Lancashire UK |
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pdrg
Support Moderator
United Kingdom
2897 Posts |
Posted - 14 September 2005 : 08:10:32
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I think you'd be well placed to just resolve this as quickly and amicably as possible. I suggest you stand on the position that you *subsidised* their domain based on the hosting arrangement, that this was a business goodwill gesture, and that you're disappointed they have gone this way.
Allow them to continue to lease the domain from you for a reasonable fee, or sell it at a rate that will cover your subsidy costs for the past few years (incl administration fees, consultanct fees, etc).
But - get it off your hands asap - there is a lot of very murky legal precedence in these cases, and you don't want to/can't afford to be a test case. Be reasonable and BE SEEN to be reasonable at every stage. List all the direct costs incurred by you (subsidy) and add on consultancy time for dealing with it, and the admin fees of the NIC. Domain names are not free, hosting costs money, life costs money. Present them with a full breakout of your costs to date, and state a release fee/sales fee.
I think you may be on tricky ground offering to sell what the club may (rightfully) claim to be their salesmark to a competitor (highest bidder), so should focus on getting a fair deal for both sides and wave goodbye to them.
This sound slike it's getting mucky - honestly, life is too short sometimes to deal with -holes. |
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laser
Advanced Member
Australia
3859 Posts |
Posted - 14 September 2005 : 08:43:56
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David,
I empathise with you, because I'm in a similar situation. Four years ago I purchased the domain and paid the registration, in exchange for free club membership (I was out of pocket more by buying the domain, so thought my extra donation was accepted). A few changes of committees later, and a new "web genius" emerges and suddenly they want a "better website", they have tossed my custom written ASP site for a Xoops CMS site and the new genius (I was the old genius  ) doesn't even know how to tweak the site to their needs. I am now being told that I have 4 years of fees to pay, and they don't mind paying the domain charges. I was probably the catalyst for all this, because they were complaining about the expensive hosting and I suggested that I host the site for about a 75% reduction in their current fees. The new genius trumped me by offering to host at his house for free.
As you can guess, my association with the club as ended on a pretty sour note, but I have the last laugh .... they use my name server, and when they pay for the domain I will also delete their name server record.
Bottom line : Sometimes these clubs (that are usually on a very tight budget), need to realise how much value they are getting rather than just doing a great job of p--ing people off. |
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Classicmotorcycling
Development Team Leader
Australia
2084 Posts |
Posted - 14 September 2005 : 15:29:39
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It is a .com domain name and currently ranked 1 in Google by using common words for the sport they have (post classic racing).
Laser, I am basically going through the same with-out me being a member of their club. New genius comes in and decides he knows how to create a web site better then me, but his creations are worse than what my daughter could do 4 years ago when she was 10. I used to do updates for them all the time and did not charge all the time for the upgrades I did.
I did offer the domain name at $AU350.00 to the club, which I thought was rather cheap, but they are still keeping on demanding that they own it and I don't have any claim to money for it. They have now registered the .com.au domain name of the same name and have a tempory site up.
I have also advised them that when they get the old data that I can help them set it to work on the new domain at a fee and they are saying it should be working already for the new domain name. There are configuration files that need to be changed and I am willing to advise them of what needs to be changed, but not for free. Is that also wrong?
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Cheers,
David Greening |
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MarcelG
Retired Support Moderator
Netherlands
2625 Posts |
Posted - 14 September 2005 : 15:49:58
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David, you're experiencing the common effect of 'spoiled customers'. We in the Netherlands have a saying : "If you give 'm a finger, they'll take your hand".
You're completely in your right, and you should not take it personal. If they mean business, you mean business. If they're ungratefull and expect free rides everywhere, it's their problem.
You offered your help, you offered to sell the domain name, you helped them out for years already, and they 'spit' you out for a cheaper hosting deal and a crappy 'new' site.
They're wrong....you've been just too good for them. |
portfolio - linkshrinker - oxle - twitter |
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laser
Advanced Member
Australia
3859 Posts |
Posted - 14 September 2005 : 17:03:10
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Maybe it's just a problem with clubs in NSW then .. I hope  |
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zinpin
Junior Member
Australia
202 Posts |
Posted - 14 September 2005 : 18:44:49
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David you're absolutely in the right. From what I read above and the crazy offer of just $350 I think it's a case of the club being a bully and as always they think that because they think they have the numbers ie people they can get away with it.
Your arrangement with them from the beginning was clever and it does not matter how bad the new web guy does or offers them they still won't admit that what they are doing now is wrong.
Stick to your guns or just get a lawyer to send them a letter with your offer for the domain. This time add the Lawers fees in there too plus a bit extra for them pissing you off. I would say $1600 and that's still a bloody good deal.
These clubs seem to have the money when they want it.
You will see right away that they will come around very quickly.
Something I forgot to mention: pdrg is rigt you need to get it off your hands. Thats why I suggest get a lawer to handle it and get his fees added onto the final price.
Then it's not personal just clean business.
Good luck btw
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Edited by - zinpin on 14 September 2005 18:57:49 |
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ruirib
Snitz Forums Admin
Portugal
26364 Posts |
Posted - 14 September 2005 : 18:59:08
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Sometimes I tend to think that people get spoiled when they have stuff for free. It seems they just don't give it the right value. So, sometimes, they need to see a number representing a currency value, so that they can recognise how much they'd been getting for free.
David, I see nothing wrong with what you're doing. Don't feel bad about it and don't let them get away without paying you what you're owed. Don't be too generous, it won't be taken by them with the appreciation deserved  . |
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Doug G
Support Moderator
USA
6493 Posts |
Posted - 14 September 2005 : 20:44:57
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Personally, I think you should a) have registered the domain in their name originally (not yours), and b) transfer it to them now for cost only. Then move on to bigger and better things.
$0000000.02
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Doug G
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Computer history and help at www.dougscode.com |
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laser
Advanced Member
Australia
3859 Posts |
Posted - 14 September 2005 : 22:51:10
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quote:
So, sometimes, they need to see a number representing a currency value, so that they can recognise how much they'd been getting for free.
I have done this with a newer client. Everytime I do work for them they get an invoice stating the real amount, then 100% discount to balance the invoice back to $0.00
I hope it works |
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zinpin
Junior Member
Australia
202 Posts |
Posted - 15 September 2005 : 00:04:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug G
Personally, I think you should a) have registered the domain in their name originally (not yours), and b) transfer it to them now for cost only. Then move on to bigger and better things.
$0000000.02
based on what he said at the top, Doug, I don't think he was working for them at the time he registered the domain name.
He offered the domain for them to use as long as they host with him.
Although this might sound a bit cheeky, It's not something that I would classify as out of the ordinary.
When you think about it 15-20% of the .com domains out there are owned by poeple that have no intention of using them for what they are but to resell. |
Edited by - zinpin on 15 September 2005 00:07:19 |
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Ranko
Junior Member
400 Posts |
Posted - 15 September 2005 : 04:45:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Classicmotorcycling
It is a .com domain name and currently ranked 1 in Google by using common words for the sport they have (post classic racing).
The price you mentioned is good.
You are the owner of the domain with an investment into it. There should be no legal and definately no moral obligation for you to give them the domain.
quote:
I have also advised them that when they get the old data that I can help them set it to work on the new domain at a fee and they are saying it should be working already for the new domain name. There are configuration files that need to be changed and I am willing to advise them of what needs to be changed, but not for free. Is that also wrong?
No. |
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pdrg
Support Moderator
United Kingdom
2897 Posts |
Posted - 15 September 2005 : 04:49:00
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quote:
Originally posted by zinpin
He offered the domain for them to use as long as they host with him.
Although this might sound a bit cheeky, It's not something that I would classify as out of the ordinary.
This was a common enough model 4-5 yrs ago - indeed some companies still do this.
If there's one thing I hate it's injustice, bullying and spoiled brats (hmmm, that'll be 3 things then...!). You seem to be being more than reasonable with A$350, they're getting excellent value. Make sure your offer for A$350 is in writing, all clear, and that you are not prepared to discuss it any further. If they try to keep phoning you ask them not to, to put their objections and all further communications in a formal letter (get and keep the paper trail going!), and to sue you for it. I imagine any sane person will pay A$350 as opposed to litigate, and you can both retain face whilst swearing at the other behind their backs.
PS - make it a condition of sale (formal letter, remember) that there is no disparaging/defaming/libellous publicity against you or your business! |
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Classicmotorcycling
Development Team Leader
Australia
2084 Posts |
Posted - 15 September 2005 : 05:08:32
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Thanks for the comments folks.
I will also take on board what Doug said, but he needs to relaise that I had already registered the domain name in my name, and it was one that I offered them to use as they had no idea on how to setup a website, little on how to get a domain name and they wanted it quick. I originally purchased the domain name about 2 months before they approached me for a website from Network Solutions.
I may of been nicer to them, but they gave me allsorts of grief (with threats and intimadation) and I may of given it to the club for the registration costs of the domain name if they didn't start demanding and being idiots about it, so I thought that $AU350 was a fair price for the grief.
They have been even worst since then and I informed them that I now withdraw any offer to sell them the domain and would sooner hang on to it and do an anti-club site if they kept going the way they were. I did also offer them other domains back in 2001, but they choose to use that one. Needless to say I have not heard anymore from them since yesterday.
I know I get fired up somethines, but it takes a lot to upset me and I would go out of my way to help people, but this club has now pressed the wrong buttons so to speak.
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Cheers,
David Greening |
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