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e3stone
Average Member
USA
885 Posts |
 Posted - 24 October 2002 : 13:31:17
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I was just sitting here looking at my inc_header.asp code and a question popped into my head. If there is a mod used in the base forum code, should the original author be given credit in inc_header.asp? There is a meta tag that says:
quote:
This Forum code is Copyright (C) 2000-02 Michael Anderson, Pierre Gorissen, Huw Reddick and Richard Kinser...
The mod I though of was the topic sorting mod, originally coded (if I'm not mistaken) by Work Mule, which is on forum.asp.
Same question stands for those forums that have a lot of mods. There's no distinction between base forum code and mods in the code, so if a random person looks at the html source, they'll see the copyright and assume that the above mentioned wrote all the modifications, too, which would be understandable since a lot of the mods work seamlessly with the base code.
Should there be a meta tag included so that all the mod authors are given credit? |
<-- Eric --> |
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dayve
Forum Moderator
USA
5820 Posts |
Posted - 25 October 2002 : 01:32:02
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a meta tag for the author of the mod? I wouldn't think so considering the purpose of a meta tag is generally for search bots. authors should just use regular comment lines for their credit notice.
a lot of developers put their name or some other distinguishing text in meta tags to search the net and see where their code has migrated to. |
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e3stone
Average Member
USA
885 Posts |
Posted - 25 October 2002 : 13:02:45
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| Well, the method in which we display the mod authors wasn't really the question I wanted the answer for. I actually am more interested in why the developers added code written by someone else and then still have this copyright meta tag on here without giving proper credit where it's due. Doesn't seem right. |
<-- Eric --> |
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davemaxwell
Access 2000 Support Moderator
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 25 October 2002 : 13:32:52
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Most of the active developers are credited in the readme file that comes with the forum. It would be a nightmare to try and credit everyone where their mods are added. None of the mods are added to the base code without the permission of the author (or else someone has duplicated the functionality in a different way).
But the overall copyright to the product still belongs to Mike, Gor, Huw and Richard. |
Dave Maxwell
Barbershop Harmony Freak |
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e3stone
Average Member
USA
885 Posts |
Posted - 25 October 2002 : 17:21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by davemaxwell
None of the mods are added to the base code without the permission of the author (or else someone has duplicated the functionality in a different way).
Well, Dave (Work Mule) isn't mentioned in the readme file and the Topic Sorting Mod code in 3.4 is the exact same as it is in my 3.1sr4 (I got that mod directly from Work Mule)
I'd be disappointed if one of the persons mentioned in the copyright did not reply to this. |
<-- Eric --> |
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work mule
Senior Member
USA
1358 Posts |
Posted - 25 October 2002 : 21:56:48
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Let me preface this by asking that members of the development team please don't take the following personally or the wrong way. This is in no way intended to take away from the hard work and countless hours that many on the development team have spent on making Snitz into what it is today.
Sometimes I don't think people truly realize the commitment these people have made. To write code is one thing, but to actively support it is another. To answer any question and explain certain processes over and over requires a lot of patience and involves a lot of time. The people on the development team (and the board moderators) have always been willing to help and have demonstrated their commitment to support the Snitz code.
Sidenote, you guys should setup a cool page like this 
http://www.phpbb.com/credits.php
quote:
Most of the active developers are credited in the readme file that comes with the forum. It would be a nightmare to try and credit everyone where their mods are added. None of the mods are added to the base code without the permission of the author (or else someone has duplicated the functionality in a different way).
I'm not sure I totally agree. The development team seems to be very particular about what makes it into the base code in regards to mods. I would guess the majority of the mods that do make it in have originally been written by members of the development team to begin with. The number of mods written by non-development team members which end up making it into the base code is probably low (maybe I'm wrong).
When a developer goes into the base code to add in a particular feature, I'm guessing that he/she is quite aware of what they're doing. I would also think that some sort of record is kept somewhere documenting what was added and when and by whom, especially when working in a team environment.
Anyways...
Here are a couple of mods which I've written in the past and posted:
MOD: Topic Sorting & Alternate Paging Style
Code Snippets: The Writer: Navigation & Login Code (login page)
MOD: (Jump to) 1st New Post & Last Post of Topic
topic.asp - code mod - combine sql statements? (also demonstrated there wasn't a need to pass titles from querystrings because the information was already available in the queries)
All of these in some form or another made it in. Either it was the code or the concept/idea. The topic sorting is in. The second one, the login page is similiar except for the error messages and some additional code. The last two mods I list because they are examples of where actual code was made available as a proof of concept - saying that hey, it is possible to do this. Prior to that point, no one ever provided code or demonstrated a working example.
I don't recall ever being asked about "permission" for the topic paging mod. Maybe the attempt was made but nobody could reach me, for there were times I couldn't be reached. However (for myself) it doesn't matter, I do not expect anyone to contact me. My opinion is that if I write something and make it available here, then if anyone wants to use it for Snitz go for it. That's the whole reason it's here. To find out that something I did ended making it into the base code is pretty cool for me.
Now to be honest, once I saw that the topic sorting mod was in there (and was the same), I have to admit that I did start looking in the readme file to see if I made it into the credits. However, the only credits which are given are to the owners and members of the development team. The rest of us are covered under the line "It wouldn't be here today if it weren’t for all of those mentioned and many more who were not.". I'll admit it's a bit disappointing not seeing my name, but I accept it with the understanding that contributors outside of the development team are not listed here and are covered by the one statement. I personally wasn't going to dwell on it since my time is better spent on writing code. But since the topic is brought up I thought I'd mention it.
I've always thought it would be nice to list members outside of the development team who have contributed - either through code and/or discussions. There are active members here who actively support the code and are pro-active in finding bugs and posting them here. As one example, and I'm not suggesting post counts should be a criteria, but surely anyone who is over 2500+ posts must have had some impact here. However, I understand that creating a list of contributors might cause problems such as what's the criteria for who gets listed.
quote:
a lot of developers put their name or some other distinguishing text in meta tags to search the net and see where their code has migrated to.
Besides itself, Google is a provider for Yahoo, AOL and Netscape. Google does not index meta tags or comments. I've done searches on Google within my site for unique phrases/words that are within meta tags and/or comments and nothing comes up. If in fact there are any search engines which exist which still do this, I think it'll become harder to find search engines which still use meta-tags for indexing purposes. The meta-tag (besides the ones used specifically by the browser) in this instance will become nothing more than a vanity tag. |
Edited by - work mule on 25 October 2002 21:58:25 |
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PeeWee.Inc
Senior Member
United Kingdom
1893 Posts |
Posted - 26 October 2002 : 06:11:47
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| I know it's not the base code but i have a credits.asp page for all the mods i have. |
De Priofundus Calmo Ad Te Damine |
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e3stone
Average Member
USA
885 Posts |
Posted - 26 October 2002 : 14:34:49
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OK, at least say, "hey, sorry Work Mule. We should've let you know that we stuck your code in the base forum code. There's really no excuse why we didn't place your name in the readme file. etc etc etc"
People around here jump all over sites that don't have the "Powered by: Snitz..blah blah" and why is this situation any different? Obviously the developers have been reading this topic, so why is it that they choose not to reply or do anything about it? It's ok if you admit to a mistake...we're not going to hate you for it...I just want to resolve this issue before it gets out of hand. |
<-- Eric --> |
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HuwR
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
20595 Posts |
Posted - 26 October 2002 : 15:17:40
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obviously, I can't comment for any one else, and I had little dealings with what went into v 3.4, but as an example, if we included file uploading in the forum, who would we give the credit to since there at least four mods that I know of. There is also a topic sorting mod very similar to work_mules which I had installed in my pre 3.1sr4 forum, I think Dave Maxwell, wrote it originally, but if not, it certainly predated my joining the forums. I am not saying that the one in the code isn't based on workmules as I have no idea.
I did not add my name to the copyright for vanity reasons and neither did Richard, we were specifically asked by Mike, so if you have a problem I suggest you take it up with Mike.
It is hardly surprising that we get defensive these days, we seem to do nothing but take stick from people for what we do. Well i am getting pretty sick of it. So if any of you have the time and money to support a forum that uses 30gb of bandwidth a month, then perhaps you should drop Mike an email and offer to take over the hosting of the forums. |
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Doug G
Support Moderator
USA
6493 Posts |
Posted - 26 October 2002 : 16:52:07
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HuwR is right, Dave Maxwell did the original sort topic mod back in mid-2000, HuwR released his variation on that mod later in 2000, WM did his in 2001. All the above mods had help from a number of other contributors in the various discussion threads. I doubt the code in 3.4 is a direct copy of any of the above, since nearly every line of code in this version was reworked by Richard and Davio.
I don't think there is a rule that prevents mod authors from including credits for their mod in the code they release, and I assume this is being done.
I haven't written code for this forum for a long, long time but I'm still on the development team roster. WM can have my spot if it stops this kind of bickering. As the readme says, this forum is the result of a lot of work by a lot of people over the years, and not everyone is mentioned including many who should probably be there.
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Doug G
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Computer history and help at www.dougscode.com |
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e3stone
Average Member
USA
885 Posts |
Posted - 26 October 2002 : 17:55:08
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Well, I just wanted to say that this isn't an "us against the developers" discussion. I was looking over at phpbb's board the other day and their copyright says "(c) PHPBB Group" and at the bottom of each page it has a link to a page that lists all the developers & major contributors. Just an idea, but could something like this be possible? Have a page (other than the readme which the public doesn't look at unless they download the code) that has Richard, Huw, Davio, etc etc on it...like it is in the readme file.
Here's an example: http://www.insidewaco.com/snitzgroup.htm
obviously it doesn't include everyone...for example's sake, I only listed 9 people, but the final one would have everyone...a "previous mods in the current version" list. Topic sorting could list Dave Maxwell, Huw, and Dave (WM) Could have this page be database driven, so that if someone installs a mod on their site, the author of the mod has an entry in the database (could be entered via the db_mod_setup file that's run with all mods). I think this would be cool. Then all the info for all the mods on that site could be listed. It might end up being a long page, but hey, so is out members page
Just an idea. |
<-- Eric --> |
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e3stone
Average Member
USA
885 Posts |
Posted - 28 October 2002 : 14:37:43
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| no comments on this idea? |
<-- Eric --> |
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Roland
Advanced Member
Netherlands
9335 Posts |
Posted - 28 October 2002 : 15:03:26
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The idea is nice, but only if such a page is put on this site.
The only thing I want to say about the last idea you wrote about is that I started on something like that a while ago and came to the conclusion that it wouldn't really work. You say the information "could be entered via the db_mod_setup file that's run with all mods" but not all MODs require a change to the database. Maybe the big ones do, but often the small MODs are just as important as the big ones 
Seeing how most MODs are/have been upgraded for version 3.4.xx, that would've been the best time to introduce such a page to the forums, as then "all MODs" could get the necessary codes to insert their information for that page into the database added to their _dbs file without causing unnecessary confusion about updated MODs and having to make that page into a MOD too.
I'm confusing myself now... better not keep going with this.
Oh, I might've misunderstood you. If so, consider this post never to have been written |
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e3stone
Average Member
USA
885 Posts |
Posted - 28 October 2002 : 15:12:40
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| FrutZle, no, you understood my post perfectly. I didn't even think about the mods that don't require a db upgrade. But perhaps, like you somewhat stated, all mods could be made to require a db_file which has the author and mod info in it even if the mod itself doesn't require modifying the DB. Perhaps this sort of page could be introduced in an upcoming version which would require mod-rewrites. |
<-- Eric --> |
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Davio
Development Team Member
Jamaica
12217 Posts |
Posted - 28 October 2002 : 20:53:53
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I started write mods here before I became a dev tema member, knowing that if my mod went into the base code, it would be copyrighted under the original copyrighters. Since the mods are also GPL, I have no say on what persons do with the mod. That goes for the Snitz Developers also. They don't have to give me credit for code they got which is covered under the GPL. If they do this, then why don't we ask all users who install our mods to give us credit too?
For me, the best credit I get is knowing that my mod actually made it into the base code. It means my idea and my hard work is good enough to be recognized by the developers and even added to the base code.
It's obvious that we take codes and ideas from the community and add to the base idea. That's the whole point of the community. Sharing. I think we should not look for our names to be in the credits, but to get back to the point of sharing code and ideas freely, and to be honoured that it does make it into the base code. That is what Snitz Forums was built on guys.
I think in the past few months that things have gotten tense between developers and users, that we have actually forgotten how to share and be kind to others. The admins abd deleopers are actually persons just like each one of you, they just have more responsibilites, believe it or not. |
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@tomic
Senior Member
USA
1790 Posts |
Posted - 28 October 2002 : 21:24:32
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quote:
For me, the best credit I get is knowing that my mod actually made it into the base code. It means my idea and my hard work is good enough to be recognized by the developers and even added to the base code.
While credit is great, this is the way I would feel if anything I did appeared in the base code.
@tomic |
SportsBettingAcumen.com |
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