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Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
 Posted - 26 September 2002 : 00:04:08
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quote:
Originally posted by TestMagic
Nice to hear another perspective... 
This may be a stupid question, but...
Are there any Iraqi's out there?
TestMagic, nobody should feel any offence from what I said (maybe except W, but he is not a member anyway ).
Do you think that Iraqi's are allowed to use Internet?
If they could offer of that course... Do you know how many children died because of the embargo in the last 10 years?
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@tomic
Senior Member
USA
1790 Posts |
Posted - 26 September 2002 : 00:22:28
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quote:
Do you know how many children died because of the embargo in the last 10 years?
I've seen many figures for this. Do you know how many children died in Iraq because their leader used resources that could have saved them to make sure his Republican Guard and their families live well to help maintain the political status quo inside Iraq? |
SportsBettingAcumen.com |
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Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
Posted - 26 September 2002 : 00:31:18
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
quote:
Do you know how many children died because of the embargo in the last 10 years?
I've seen many figures for this. Do you know how many children died in Iraq because their leader used resources that could have saved them to make sure his Republican Guard and their families live well to help maintain the political status quo inside Iraq?
This is also true, but both seem to be correct. Isn't it ? |
Stop the WAR! |
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TestMagic
Senior Member
USA
1568 Posts |
Posted - 26 September 2002 : 01:10:41
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quote:
Originally posted by bozden
TestMagic, nobody should feel any offence from what I said (maybe except W, but he is not a member anyway ).
Do you think that Iraqi's are allowed to use Internet?
Actually, I wasn't offended by anything anybody's said (so far); everybody's kinda just politely voicing their opinions.
As for any Iraqi's @ Snitz, I was thinking perhaps some emmigrés. Actually, I've never even met an Iraqi. I've met many people from just about every other country in the Middle East, though. I've met people from Cuba, too, but not from North Korea.
Anyway, my point is that it's nice to hear all sides of this issue. I, for one, found interesting your comments about how the war would affect you in Turkey. |
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@tomic
Senior Member
USA
1790 Posts |
Posted - 26 September 2002 : 01:24:00
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quote:
This is also true, but both seem to be correct. Isn't it
yes, I can accept that but I think it is fair that it's not implied that just the sanctions hurt Iraqi's. So small a country having so large an army even before '91 did not make for a prosperous economy.
@tomic |
SportsBettingAcumen.com |
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Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
Posted - 26 September 2002 : 02:24:18
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This UPI analysis very current on British dossier and is worth to read: http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20020924-110817-6193r
This is a paper published in 1999 (i.e. not up2date) that covers the economy of Iraq: http://www.cam.ac.uk/societies/casi/info/alnasrawi9905.html
It is worth to read all, but the title "2. Militarization of the Economy and the Burden of Military Spending" is very interesting...
Spending money on arms has similar effects in every country, it only makes the producer happy... Do you think that the latest increase in US defence budget will not harm you?
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@tomic
Senior Member
USA
1790 Posts |
Posted - 26 September 2002 : 02:36:42
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Spending money on arms has similar effects in every country, it only makes the producer happy... Do you think that the latest increase in US defence budget will not harm you?
Absolutely. And the $100 billion a war would cost could be even more harmful and then there's the entire cost of the post-war period including occupation and rebuilding. None of that even accounts for political repercussions.
@tomic |
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HuwR
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
20595 Posts |
Posted - 26 September 2002 : 04:08:37
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quote:
Do you know how many children died because of the embargo in the last 10 years?
Do you know how many innocent Iraqi people have been murdered by the Iraqi's them selves ?
Duuring te many years of conflict between Iraq and Iran, one of the modt heavily shelled paces was the city of Basrah, during this time, if a civilian was found trying to flee the city, they were shot for disertion.
quote:
Do you think that Iraqi's are allowed to use Internet?
Only if they don't live in Iraq I have a couple of Iraqi friends who live in London.
Don't get me wrong, I am a very strong objector to war, and spent many an hour on protest marches against american nukes being based in the uk when I was younger, and I don't kid myself that most of this isn't about oil & gas either and sod all to to with terrorist threats.
What most of you seem to be forgetting is that Iraq has probably the largest oil & gas reserves of any of the gulf states. |
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Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
Posted - 26 September 2002 : 05:06:02
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Don't get me wrong
No, you are correct on what you are saying. I'm against the war, and we are not allowed to be tired, even if we are a lot older now .
And nobody gets me wrong: I'm not advocating Saddam, I'm against his dictatorship. But, US has nothing to do with the status IN Iraq, it is the internal affair of a country. We also don't forget the oil point, it was also the case in Afghanistan. And we should also don't forget how such "international affairs" draw attention FROM internal problems US has.
"W" shoots a lot of birds with one shot:
- New oil reserves taken under guaranty (he knows the oil business). Do you remember how people did shout in year 2000 when the oil prices go up? I was in USA that time and was shocked to hear that is the main issue on CNN. That was 1/4th of the price we have here, although you have multiples of per-capita as we have!
- Pushes any protesting people in USA to silence, especially non-white people & muslim groups. (How is the economics in USA in the last few years? How many jobless? How many homeless? How is the equality between different colored people?)
- Makes the arm manufacturers happy. Do you know which country is the largest weapon manufacturer? They have full of stocks. They like fairs, one shot 1 M$.
- This will make other large international companies happy, that is after the war they will re-build Iraq and will have new people to sell things. Man, Iraqi's (i.e. mainland ) don't eat McDonalds, can you believe?
- Some people/governments outside don't obey USA, why not force them?
- etc, etc, etc
- Well, I also think of self-satisfaction issue (I hope I don't use this word in wrong way )
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Edited by - Deleted on 26 September 2002 05:10:24 |
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VodkaFish
Average Member
USA
654 Posts |
Posted - 26 September 2002 : 15:45:12
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I too can be called to the army! It can just be too easy to speak out of the "American Way of Living"...
Not sure what you mean by that. We can be called to the army too, just throwing that out there in case you were unaware. It just seems like you were implying that people here spoke out against Iraq thinking, they won't have to go to the army. While that could be likely, there can be a call for reserves, and then even a draft here. Apologies if I misunderstood you and force-fed you things you know already
As for my thoughts on oil: the US is not going to fight for oil anymore. For one thing, most of the oil used here comes from the US, Canada and Venezula - then the Middle East. Companies like GM are making prototype hydrogen cell cars (projected 10 years away? - spent 1 BILLION dollars researching and building it too. wow.). Oil can only last how much longer? Would a war increase prices here? Yes. One reason would be because of supply, but the other would be because of capitalism and the ability to claim a bigger shortage then there truly is (hey, I don't like it, but I'm not naive). My point to my rambling is that oil effects things here, but is not a reason for a war. There are other suppliers; and other solutions 10 years away may seem silly, but this is all about long-term.
As for war, I don't like it. Never will. Understand it sometimes. I am in a gray area on this issue. I don't want the US to make more enemies over there, but the hatred that is already there waiting to pounce is quite disturbing. The evidence of bio-weapons is there, and that's very scary. It seems every statement I have for or against the war, I have a "but", but I know that's normal
btw - I don't like Ron Paul's questions or implications at all. His questions are phrased poorly and are just a way to twist some questions into looking like some facts which are not true.
Just some thoughts. Glad this topic is still calm |
v ø d k â f ï § h |
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Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
Posted - 26 September 2002 : 16:11:00
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Well, as I said, this is not our war at all. Paul's Q30:
quote:
30. Where does the Constitution grant us permission to wage war for any reason other than self-defense?
is also valid here.
It will be nice to hear how you US citizens answer the 35 (for me) valid questions.
quote:
Glad this topic is still calm
Why not? We are grown-up intellectuals! |
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xstream
Junior Member
242 Posts |
Posted - 26 September 2002 : 16:28:11
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To be honest, I think a lot of it is BS and fuelled by Bush's hungre to have America in war with someone. Seeing how they're pretty much done in Pakistan, he needs some place new to fight, so why not go after someone everyone knows: Sadam.
I think he's doing it because Clinton did not. Several years back they were saying Iraq was close to having weapons of mass destruction, but no one did anything. Anyway, my two cents.
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@tomic
Senior Member
USA
1790 Posts |
Posted - 26 September 2002 : 16:47:29
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quote:
It will be nice to hear how you US citizens answer the 35 (for me) valid questions.
Well, they were not all that good. Some were good and some were just political rhetoric. The statement about Clinton above was silly. Dubya's father left the dog there in the first place siting the UN resolution as why he didn't remove Saddam. Now, ironically, his son is siting that very same resolution as the reason to go back and get him. I am amused daily as the Bush administration lobs new accusations out to the press. One day Saddam is on the verge of getting nuclear weapons which the press discredited because it's a goofy reason since those weapons are primarily for a deterrent so that the USA won't attack. Then they use false information...I mean lies...to tie Iraq to terrorism when so recently the CIA reported that there was no tie. Every day we get another attempt at making Iraq look like a menace. Every day the press shoots them down. It's not that hard to check some of the facts. It's amazing that the administration presents these falsehoods when there might be actual reasons out there to use. Of course we don't know if there are because the administration keeps lobbing these ridiculous attempts at rationalizationat us one after the other. I'm geting dizzy.
@tomic |
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VodkaFish
Average Member
USA
654 Posts |
Posted - 26 September 2002 : 16:59:10
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boz - if I had the time for those 30 questions, I'd make a Snitz ver 6  @tomic is in agreement with me that many are just a little a silly, and were just asked to make him look "good" in some other politician's eys.
My opinion on q30 that you bring up specifically is that that question is valid. I just think that there is a matter of self-defense when a country refers to you over and over again as the "enemy" or the "devils" and they are building bio-weapons and trying to acquire other mass-hurting types. Does it mean the US should strike? No, I'm not sure, but it seems that most of the world wants to wait until something is actually used by Iraq before believing there is something there, and I hope it does not come to that. Even that being said, I still don't want war, but I cannot say that everything can just be left alone. |
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@tomic
Senior Member
USA
1790 Posts |
Posted - 26 September 2002 : 17:06:41
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I just think that there is a matter of self-defense when a country refers to you over and over again as the "enemy" or the "devils" and they are building bio-weapons and trying to acquire other mass-hurting types.
Ummm, this is how the US government has referred to Iraq/Saddam since 1991 and the US used weapons of frightening devastation against the Iraqi's in 1991, against the Vietnamese, against the Japanese and to top it off we supplied Saddam with the bio/chemical technology to fight Iran. (Doh!). I would use another argument quick so the rest of the world doesn't come to the USA for a "regime change"
@tomic |
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