quote:

---

Since these restrictions are not allowed by the GPL (which grants, in particular, the right to modify any part of the code with no restrictions)

---

quote:

---

1. You may copy and distribute verbatim copies of the Program's
source code as you receive it, in any medium, provided that you
conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy an appropriate
copyright notice and disclaimer of warranty; keep intact all the
notices that refer to this License and to the absence of any warranty;
and give any other recipients of the Program a copy of this License
along with the Program.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Podge

quote:

---

Since these restrictions are not allowed by the GPL (which grants, in particular, the right to modify any part of the code with no restrictions)

---

The GPL cannot (and does not) affect a programmers right to copyright. The authors of Snitz are entitled to claim copyright on code they have written. If anyone were to change that code, it would violate copyright laws in most countries.

---

quote:

---

From the GPL.....

quote:

---

1. You may copy and distribute verbatim copies of the Program's
source code as you receive it, in any medium, provided that you
conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy an appropriate
copyright notice and disclaimer of warranty; keep intact all the
notices that refer to this License and to the absence of any warranty;
and give any other recipients of the Program a copy of this License
along with the Program.

---

---

quote:

---

We should not confuse licensing and copyright. The copyright owner(s) own the copyright: no one is questioning this. The point is that I have received the software under the GPL and the GPL allows me to change the code.

---

quote:

---

Subject: GPL'd software forbids modification of some code

Dear Sirs,

I have downloaded a copy of "Snitz Forums 2000" from http://forum.snitz.com/
(latest version at http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/sf2k/sf2k_v34_05.zip?download)
because I was looking for some GPL'd code for runinng web forums that my
student could study and modify at will. The package of "Snitz Forums 2000"
contains a copy of the GPL so that everything seems OK. However, the code
has 8 sections of code that look like the following:

'## START - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT
Response.Write "<meta name=""copyright"" content=""This Forum code is Copyright (C) 2000-05 Michael Anderson,
Pierre Gorissen, Huw Reddick and Richard Kinser, Non-Forum Related code is Copyright (C) " & strCopyright & """>"
& vbNewline
'## END - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT

Plus one section of code that looks like:

'## START - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT
Response.Write "<a href=""http://forum.snitz.com"" target=""_blank"" tabindex=""-1""><acronym title=""Powered By: "
& strVersion & """>"
if strShowImagePoweredBy = "1" then
Response.Write getCurrentIcon("logo_powered_by.gif||","Powered By: " & strVersion,"")
else
Response.Write "Snitz Forums 2000"
end if
Response.Write "</acronym></a></font></td>" & vbNewline
'## END - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT

The first 8 sections of code make sure that every produced web page contains the
string "<meta name="copyright" content="This Forum code is Copyright (C) 2000-02
Michael Anderson, Pierre Gorissen, Huw Reddick and Richard Kinser, Non-Forum
Related code is Copyright (C) XXX">, where `XXX' is provided by the configuration.

The last section makes sure every produced web page contains a link to the web site
http://forum.snitz.com.

Here is how each source module begins:

'#################################################################################
'## Snitz Forums 2000 v3.4.05
'#################################################################################
'## Copyright (C) 2000-05 Michael Anderson, Pierre Gorissen,
'## Huw Reddick and Richard Kinser
'##
'## This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
'## modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
'## as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2
'## of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
'##
'## All copyright notices regarding Snitz Forums 2000
'## must remain intact in the scripts and in the outputted HTML
'## The "powered by" text/logo with a link back to
'## http://forum.snitz.com in the footer of the pages MUST
'## remain visible when the pages are viewed on the internet or intranet.
'##
'## This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
'## but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
'## MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the
'## GNU General Public License for more details.
'##
'## You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
'## along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software
'## Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA.
'##
'## Support can be obtained from our support forums at:
'## http://forum.snitz.com
'##
'## Correspondence and Marketing Questions can be sent to:
'## manderson@snitz.com
'##
'#################################################################################

This is a very strange reading of the GPL, in my humble opinion. So I got
in touch with one of the copyright holders and his answers was constituted
by the following single sentence: "The GPL does not allow you to remove the
copyright notices, if you have a problem, then don't use the code, it is your
choice."

I am thus writing to you to understand whether this reading of the GPL is correct.
I guess what they claim is that the 8 sections of code above are copyright notices
and the GPL does not allow to touch them. My understanding is that the copyright
notices must exist in the sources (and they are there, in the form of comments
at the beginning of each source module), not (necessarily) in the output of the program.
The last section of the marked code, the one inserting a link to their web site
seems to have even less to do with the GPL.

It is also interesting to note that other people that have taken this
code, have also taken for granted that this reading of the GPL is correct,
and have added their own requirements. For instance, the guys at
http://www.superdeejay.net/, who have modified "Snitz Forums 2000",
explicitly forbid modification to the code they distribute in the
sections where they make sure every produces web pages points to
http://www.superdeejay.net in addition to pointing to
http://forum.snitz.com.

Many thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this.

---

quote:

---

>[xyzzy@xyzzy.xyzzy - Tue Mar 01 16:53:38 2005]:


>> The package of "Snitz Forums
>> 2000"
>> contains a copy of the GPL so that everything seems OK. However, the
>> code
>> has 8 sections of code that look like the following:
>>
>> '## START - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL
>> VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT
>> Response.Write "<meta name=""copyright"" content=""This Forum code is
>> Copyright (C) 2000-05 Michael Anderson,
>> Pierre Gorissen, Huw Reddick and Richard Kinser, Non-Forum Related
>> code is Copyright (C) " & strCopyright & """>"
>> & vbNewline
>> '## END - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL
>> VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT


<snip>

>> This is a very strange reading of the GPL, in my humble opinion. So I
>> got in touch with one of the copyright holders and his answers was
>> constituted by the following single sentence: "The GPL does not allow
>> you to remove the copyright notices, if you have a problem, then don't
>> use the code, it is your choice."
>>
>> I am thus writing to you to understand whether this reading of the GPL
>> is correct. I guess what they claim is that the 8 sections of code
>> above are copyright notices and the GPL does not allow to touch them.
>> My understanding is that the copyright notices must exist in the
>> sources (and they are there, in the form of comments at the beginning
>> of each source module), not (necessarily) in the output of the
>> program. The last section of the marked code, the one inserting a link
>> to their web site seems to have even less to do with the GPL.


That's generally true. There is one case where copyright notices are
required in output -- that's section (2)(c) of the GPL. For web
applications, that's notices on the front page which have all of the
following:

(1) copyright
(2) no warranty
(3) this program is GPL
(4) where to find a copy of the GPL.

For web applications, HTML comments satisfy the requirement.

So, this guy's requirement goes beyond the GPL.

-- -Dave "Novalis" Turner GPL Compliance Engineer Free Software Foundation

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyzzy
My understanding is that, according to the GPL, I can modify the code at will as long as the information detailed in points (1)-(4) above is contained in HTML comments of the forum's front page. The "powered by and link back" stuff is simply not required, not even in the form of an HTML comment.
Cheers,

xyzzy

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RichardKinser

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyzzy
My understanding is that, according to the GPL, I can modify the code at will as long as the information detailed in points (1)-(4) above is contained in HTML comments of the forum's front page. The "powered by and link back" stuff is simply not required, not even in the form of an HTML comment.
Cheers,

xyzzy

---

Your "understanding" is incorrect. We have detailed our requirements for people to use this forum. If you can't adhere to those requirements, then don't use it. The Powered By Logo/Text link requirement is non-negotiable. Either you leave it intact, or you are in violation of our license, how hard is that to understand?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RichardKinser

can you not read? Our license is very clearly spelled out at the top of every .asp file included in our forum:

'## All copyright notices regarding Snitz Forums 2000
'## must remain intact in the scripts and in the outputted HTML
'## The "powered by" text/logo with a link back to
'## http://forum.snitz.com in the footer of the pages MUST
'## remain visible when the pages are viewed on the internet or intranet.

---

quote:

---

We have had this same discussion since this forum project was started.
The Powered By Logo/Text link requirement has always been there, and always will be. It is a VERY SMALL price to pay for free software that many, many people contributed many, many, many hours to code.

---

quote:

---

So, you have a choice. You can use our forum, and abide by our licensing agreement, or you can go look for another forum to use.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyzzy


Here is the letter I sent to licensing@gnu.org:

quote:

---

Subject: GPL'd software forbids modification of some code

Dear Sirs,

I have downloaded a copy of "Snitz Forums 2000" from http://forum.snitz.com/
(latest version at http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/sf2k/sf2k_v34_05.zip?download)
because I was looking for some GPL'd code for runinng web forums that my
student could study and modify at will. The package of "Snitz Forums 2000"
contains a copy of the GPL so that everything seems OK. However, the code
has 8 sections of code that look like the following:

'## START - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT
Response.Write "<meta name=""copyright"" content=""This Forum code is Copyright (C) 2000-05 Michael Anderson,
Pierre Gorissen, Huw Reddick and Richard Kinser, Non-Forum Related code is Copyright (C) " & strCopyright & """>"
& vbNewline
'## END - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT

Plus one section of code that looks like:

'## START - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT
Response.Write "<a href=""http://forum.snitz.com"" target=""_blank"" tabindex=""-1""><acronym title=""Powered By: "
& strVersion & """>"
if strShowImagePoweredBy = "1" then
Response.Write getCurrentIcon("logo_powered_by.gif||","Powered By: " & strVersion,"")
else
Response.Write "Snitz Forums 2000"
end if
Response.Write "</acronym></a></font></td>" & vbNewline
'## END - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT

The first 8 sections of code make sure that every produced web page contains the
string "<meta name="copyright" content="This Forum code is Copyright (C) 2000-02
Michael Anderson, Pierre Gorissen, Huw Reddick and Richard Kinser, Non-Forum
Related code is Copyright (C) XXX">, where `XXX' is provided by the configuration.

The last section makes sure every produced web page contains a link to the web site
http://forum.snitz.com.

Here is how each source module begins:

'#################################################################################
'## Snitz Forums 2000 v3.4.05
'#################################################################################
'## Copyright (C) 2000-05 Michael Anderson, Pierre Gorissen,
'## Huw Reddick and Richard Kinser
'##
'## This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
'## modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
'## as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2
'## of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
'##
'## All copyright notices regarding Snitz Forums 2000
'## must remain intact in the scripts and in the outputted HTML
'## The "powered by" text/logo with a link back to
'## http://forum.snitz.com in the footer of the pages MUST
'## remain visible when the pages are viewed on the internet or intranet.
'##
'## This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
'## but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
'## MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the
'## GNU General Public License for more details.
'##
'## You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
'## along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software
'## Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA.
'##
'## Support can be obtained from our support forums at:
'## http://forum.snitz.com
'##
'## Correspondence and Marketing Questions can be sent to:
'## manderson@snitz.com
'##
'#################################################################################

This is a very strange reading of the GPL, in my humble opinion. So I got
in touch with one of the copyright holders and his answers was constituted
by the following single sentence: "The GPL does not allow you to remove the
copyright notices, if you have a problem, then don't use the code, it is your
choice."

I am thus writing to you to understand whether this reading of the GPL is correct.
I guess what they claim is that the 8 sections of code above are copyright notices
and the GPL does not allow to touch them. My understanding is that the copyright
notices must exist in the sources (and they are there, in the form of comments
at the beginning of each source module), not (necessarily) in the output of the program.
The last section of the marked code, the one inserting a link to their web site
seems to have even less to do with the GPL.

It is also interesting to note that other people that have taken this
code, have also taken for granted that this reading of the GPL is correct,
and have added their own requirements. For instance, the guys at
http://www.superdeejay.net/, who have modified "Snitz Forums 2000",
explicitly forbid modification to the code they distribute in the
sections where they make sure every produces web pages points to
http://www.superdeejay.net in addition to pointing to
http://forum.snitz.com.

Many thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this.

---

And here is the reply I promptly got:

quote:

---

>[xyzzy@xyzzy.xyzzy - Tue Mar 01 16:53:38 2005]:


>> The package of "Snitz Forums
>> 2000"
>> contains a copy of the GPL so that everything seems OK. However, the
>> code
>> has 8 sections of code that look like the following:
>>
>> '## START - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL
>> VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT
>> Response.Write "<meta name=""copyright"" content=""This Forum code is
>> Copyright (C) 2000-05 Michael Anderson,
>> Pierre Gorissen, Huw Reddick and Richard Kinser, Non-Forum Related
>> code is Copyright (C) " & strCopyright & """>"
>> & vbNewline
>> '## END - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL
>> VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT


<snip>

>> This is a very strange reading of the GPL, in my humble opinion. So I
>> got in touch with one of the copyright holders and his answers was
>> constituted by the following single sentence: "The GPL does not allow
>> you to remove the copyright notices, if you have a problem, then don't
>> use the code, it is your choice."
>>
>> I am thus writing to you to understand whether this reading of the GPL
>> is correct. I guess what they claim is that the 8 sections of code
>> above are copyright notices and the GPL does not allow to touch them.
>> My understanding is that the copyright notices must exist in the
>> sources (and they are there, in the form of comments at the beginning
>> of each source module), not (necessarily) in the output of the
>> program. The last section of the marked code, the one inserting a link
>> to their web site seems to have even less to do with the GPL.


That's generally true. There is one case where copyright notices are
required in output -- that's section (2)(c) of the GPL. For web
applications, that's notices on the front page which have all of the
following:

(1) copyright
(2) no warranty
(3) this program is GPL
(4) where to find a copy of the GPL.

For web applications, HTML comments satisfy the requirement.

So, this guy's requirement goes beyond the GPL.

-- -Dave "Novalis" Turner GPL Compliance Engineer Free Software Foundation

---

My understanding is that, according to the GPL, I can modify the code at will as long as the information detailed in points (1)-(4) above is contained in HTML comments of the forum's front page. The "powered by and link back" stuff is simply not required, not even in the form of an HTML comment.
Cheers,

xyzzy

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyzzy
There is a third option, that is the one I will follow: I will use your forum under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at my option) any later version. I am grateful for your contribution to the free software movement and I will express my appreciation in the way I will decide is best for my purposes (definitely _not_ by means of a pervasive Powered By Logo/Text link).
Best regards,

xyzzy

---