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xyzzy
Starting Member

Italy
17 Posts

Posted - 01 March 2005 :  13:15:32  Show Profile  Send xyzzy an AOL message

Hi there,

I have downloaded Snitz Forums 2000 and I have a question about the license. All what I have downloaded seems to be distributed under the terms of the GNU General Public License (GPL) version 2.

However, in several places I found sections of code surrounded by

'## START - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT

and

'## END - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT

Since these restrictions are not allowed by the GPL (which grants, in particular, the right to modify any part of the code with no restrictions), I wonder what these lines are trying to say.
Can anyone explain?
Many thanks in advance,

xyzzy

Podge
Support Moderator

Ireland
3775 Posts

Posted - 01 March 2005 :  13:34:48  Show Profile  Send Podge an ICQ Message  Send Podge a Yahoo! Message
quote:
Since these restrictions are not allowed by the GPL (which grants, in particular, the right to modify any part of the code with no restrictions)


The GPL cannot (and does not) affect a programmers right to copyright. The authors of Snitz are entitled to claim copyright on code they have written. If anyone were to change that code, it would violate copyright laws in most countries.

From the GPL.....

quote:
1. You may copy and distribute verbatim copies of the Program's
source code as you receive it, in any medium, provided that you
conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy an appropriate
copyright notice
and disclaimer of warranty; keep intact all the
notices that refer to this License and to the absence of any warranty;
and give any other recipients of the Program a copy of this License
along with the Program.


Podge.

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xyzzy
Starting Member

Italy
17 Posts

Posted - 01 March 2005 :  13:55:02  Show Profile  Send xyzzy an AOL message
quote:
Originally posted by Podge

quote:
Since these restrictions are not allowed by the GPL (which grants, in particular, the right to modify any part of the code with no restrictions)


The GPL cannot (and does not) affect a programmers right to copyright. The authors of Snitz are entitled to claim copyright on code they have written. If anyone were to change that code, it would violate copyright laws in most countries.



We should not confuse licensing and copyright. The copyright owner(s) own the copyright: no one is questioning this. The point is that I have received the software under the GPL and the GPL allows me to change the code.

quote:

From the GPL.....

quote:
1. You may copy and distribute verbatim copies of the Program's
source code as you receive it, in any medium, provided that you
conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy an appropriate
copyright notice
and disclaimer of warranty; keep intact all the
notices that refer to this License and to the absence of any warranty;
and give any other recipients of the Program a copy of this License
along with the Program.




You seem to be misinterpreting this point of the GPL. It says we must make sure the _sources_ keep all the required information: in the form of comments, for instance. The "required information", then, is only as specified by the GPL. I doubt that, for example, the section of code that begins at line 60 of inc_footer.asp falls behing this notion of "required information".
Cheers,

xyzzy
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Podge
Support Moderator

Ireland
3775 Posts

Posted - 01 March 2005 :  14:10:51  Show Profile  Send Podge an ICQ Message  Send Podge a Yahoo! Message
quote:
We should not confuse licensing and copyright. The copyright owner(s) own the copyright: no one is questioning this. The point is that I have received the software under the GPL and the GPL allows me to change the code.

You're the one talkign about changing the copyright notice but I suppose it depends on what you qualify as code. The section to which you are referring is a copyright notice and I wouldn't consider it part of the Snitz Forums software. Its a notice and the forum will run without it.

Out of curiosity, how (or why) would you change it?

Podge.

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HuwR
Forum Admin

United Kingdom
20577 Posts

Posted - 01 March 2005 :  14:28:59  Show Profile  Visit HuwR's Homepage
The GPL does not allow you to remove the copyright notices, if you have a problem, then don't use the code, it is your choice.
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xyzzy
Starting Member

Italy
17 Posts

Posted - 01 March 2005 :  14:57:08  Show Profile  Send xyzzy an AOL message
I may be misintepreting the GPL then.
I will check with the people at the Free Software Foundation and let you know.
Cheers,

xyzzy
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HuwR
Forum Admin

United Kingdom
20577 Posts

Posted - 01 March 2005 :  15:58:55  Show Profile  Visit HuwR's Homepage
here is a copy of an email in response to a similar question relating to phpnuke a couple of years ago.

http://phpnuke.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=4947

also, you may be interested to note that at the bootom of the pages at http://www.fsf.org/ there is a "powered by plone" link, an open source CMS also released under the GPL.
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xyzzy
Starting Member

Italy
17 Posts

Posted - 02 March 2005 :  01:45:03  Show Profile  Send xyzzy an AOL message

Here is the letter I sent to licensing@gnu.org:

quote:

Subject: GPL'd software forbids modification of some code

Dear Sirs,

I have downloaded a copy of "Snitz Forums 2000" from http://forum.snitz.com/
(latest version at http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/sf2k/sf2k_v34_05.zip?download)
because I was looking for some GPL'd code for runinng web forums that my
student could study and modify at will. The package of "Snitz Forums 2000"
contains a copy of the GPL so that everything seems OK. However, the code
has 8 sections of code that look like the following:

'## START - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT
Response.Write "<meta name=""copyright"" content=""This Forum code is Copyright (C) 2000-05 Michael Anderson,
Pierre Gorissen, Huw Reddick and Richard Kinser, Non-Forum Related code is Copyright (C) " & strCopyright & """>"
& vbNewline
'## END - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT

Plus one section of code that looks like:

'## START - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT
Response.Write "<a href=""http://forum.snitz.com"" target=""_blank"" tabindex=""-1""><acronym title=""Powered By: "
& strVersion & """>"
if strShowImagePoweredBy = "1" then
Response.Write getCurrentIcon("logo_powered_by.gif||","Powered By: " & strVersion,"")
else
Response.Write "Snitz Forums 2000"
end if
Response.Write "</acronym></a></font></td>" & vbNewline
'## END - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT

The first 8 sections of code make sure that every produced web page contains the
string "<meta name="copyright" content="This Forum code is Copyright (C) 2000-02
Michael Anderson, Pierre Gorissen, Huw Reddick and Richard Kinser, Non-Forum
Related code is Copyright (C) XXX">, where `XXX' is provided by the configuration.

The last section makes sure every produced web page contains a link to the web site
http://forum.snitz.com.

Here is how each source module begins:

'#################################################################################
'## Snitz Forums 2000 v3.4.05
'#################################################################################
'## Copyright (C) 2000-05 Michael Anderson, Pierre Gorissen,
'## Huw Reddick and Richard Kinser
'##
'## This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
'## modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
'## as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2
'## of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
'##
'## All copyright notices regarding Snitz Forums 2000
'## must remain intact in the scripts and in the outputted HTML
'## The "powered by" text/logo with a link back to
'## http://forum.snitz.com in the footer of the pages MUST
'## remain visible when the pages are viewed on the internet or intranet.
'##
'## This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
'## but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
'## MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the
'## GNU General Public License for more details.
'##
'## You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
'## along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software
'## Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA.
'##
'## Support can be obtained from our support forums at:
'## http://forum.snitz.com
'##
'## Correspondence and Marketing Questions can be sent to:
'## manderson@snitz.com
'##
'#################################################################################

This is a very strange reading of the GPL, in my humble opinion. So I got
in touch with one of the copyright holders and his answers was constituted
by the following single sentence: "The GPL does not allow you to remove the
copyright notices, if you have a problem, then don't use the code, it is your
choice."

I am thus writing to you to understand whether this reading of the GPL is correct.
I guess what they claim is that the 8 sections of code above are copyright notices
and the GPL does not allow to touch them. My understanding is that the copyright
notices must exist in the sources (and they are there, in the form of comments
at the beginning of each source module), not (necessarily) in the output of the program.
The last section of the marked code, the one inserting a link to their web site
seems to have even less to do with the GPL.

It is also interesting to note that other people that have taken this
code, have also taken for granted that this reading of the GPL is correct,
and have added their own requirements. For instance, the guys at
http://www.superdeejay.net/, who have modified "Snitz Forums 2000",
explicitly forbid modification to the code they distribute in the
sections where they make sure every produces web pages points to
http://www.superdeejay.net in addition to pointing to
http://forum.snitz.com.

Many thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this.



And here is the reply I promptly got:

quote:

>[xyzzy@xyzzy.xyzzy - Tue Mar 01 16:53:38 2005]:


>> The package of "Snitz Forums
>> 2000"
>> contains a copy of the GPL so that everything seems OK. However, the
>> code
>> has 8 sections of code that look like the following:
>>
>> '## START - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL
>> VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT
>> Response.Write "<meta name=""copyright"" content=""This Forum code is
>> Copyright (C) 2000-05 Michael Anderson,
>> Pierre Gorissen, Huw Reddick and Richard Kinser, Non-Forum Related
>> code is Copyright (C) " & strCopyright & """>"
>> & vbNewline
>> '## END - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL
>> VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT


<snip>

>> This is a very strange reading of the GPL, in my humble opinion. So I
>> got in touch with one of the copyright holders and his answers was
>> constituted by the following single sentence: "The GPL does not allow
>> you to remove the copyright notices, if you have a problem, then don't
>> use the code, it is your choice."
>>
>> I am thus writing to you to understand whether this reading of the GPL
>> is correct. I guess what they claim is that the 8 sections of code
>> above are copyright notices and the GPL does not allow to touch them.
>> My understanding is that the copyright notices must exist in the
>> sources (and they are there, in the form of comments at the beginning
>> of each source module), not (necessarily) in the output of the
>> program. The last section of the marked code, the one inserting a link
>> to their web site seems to have even less to do with the GPL.


That's generally true. There is one case where copyright notices are
required in output -- that's section (2)(c) of the GPL. For web
applications, that's notices on the front page which have all of the
following:

(1) copyright
(2) no warranty
(3) this program is GPL
(4) where to find a copy of the GPL.

For web applications, HTML comments satisfy the requirement.

So, this guy's requirement goes beyond the GPL.

-- -Dave "Novalis" Turner GPL Compliance Engineer Free Software Foundation



My understanding is that, according to the GPL, I can modify the code at will as long as the information detailed in points (1)-(4) above is contained in HTML comments of the forum's front page. The "powered by and link back" stuff is simply not required, not even in the form of an HTML comment.
Cheers,

xyzzy
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RichardKinser
Snitz Forums Admin

USA
16655 Posts

Posted - 02 March 2005 :  02:52:08  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by xyzzy
My understanding is that, according to the GPL, I can modify the code at will as long as the information detailed in points (1)-(4) above is contained in HTML comments of the forum's front page. The "powered by and link back" stuff is simply not required, not even in the form of an HTML comment.
Cheers,

xyzzy



Your "understanding" is incorrect. We have detailed our requirements for people to use this forum. If you can't adhere to those requirements, then don't use it. The Powered By Logo/Text link requirement is non-negotiable. Either you leave it intact, or you are in violation of our license, how hard is that to understand?
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xyzzy
Starting Member

Italy
17 Posts

Posted - 02 March 2005 :  03:24:16  Show Profile  Send xyzzy an AOL message
quote:
Originally posted by RichardKinser

quote:
Originally posted by xyzzy
My understanding is that, according to the GPL, I can modify the code at will as long as the information detailed in points (1)-(4) above is contained in HTML comments of the forum's front page. The "powered by and link back" stuff is simply not required, not even in the form of an HTML comment.
Cheers,

xyzzy



Your "understanding" is incorrect. We have detailed our requirements for people to use this forum. If you can't adhere to those requirements, then don't use it. The Powered By Logo/Text link requirement is non-negotiable. Either you leave it intact, or you are in violation of our license, how hard is that to understand?



Excuse me, which license are you talking about, precisely?

The software I have downloaded (sf2k_v34_05.zip) declares to be released under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at my option) any later version.

Any further requirement anyone is trying to impose on the way I can use, modify and redistribute the aforementioned piece of software is simply void. In particular, the Powered By Logo/Text link requirement is so negotiable that code enforcing it can be simply erased (i.e., the "Powered By" stuff does not even need to be present in the form of HTML comments).

In the future, if you want to release SF2K under a different license you can do it (provided you respect the licenses of the codebase you started with). But as long as you release it under the GPL, these are, in my opinion and apparently in the opinion of the FSF officials, the rules of the game. This should not be hard to understand either. I realize you have a different opinion, and I respect it even though I believe it is wrong (and I have explained why).
Cheers,

xyzzy
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RichardKinser
Snitz Forums Admin

USA
16655 Posts

Posted - 02 March 2005 :  05:38:21  Show Profile
Our license is very clearly spelled out at the top of every .asp file included in our forum:

'## All copyright notices regarding Snitz Forums 2000
'## must remain intact in the scripts and in the outputted HTML
'## The "powered by" text/logo with a link back to
'## http://forum.snitz.com in the footer of the pages MUST
'## remain visible when the pages are viewed on the internet or intranet.

We have had this same discussion since this forum project was started. The Powered By Logo/Text link requirement has always been there, and always will be. It is a VERY SMALL price to pay for free software that many, many people contributed many, many, many hours to code.

So, you have a choice. You can use our forum, and abide by our licensing agreement, or you can go look for another forum to use.
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xyzzy
Starting Member

Italy
17 Posts

Posted - 02 March 2005 :  06:00:17  Show Profile  Send xyzzy an AOL message
quote:
Originally posted by RichardKinser

can you not read? Our license is very clearly spelled out at the top of every .asp file included in our forum:

'## All copyright notices regarding Snitz Forums 2000
'## must remain intact in the scripts and in the outputted HTML
'## The "powered by" text/logo with a link back to
'## http://forum.snitz.com in the footer of the pages MUST
'## remain visible when the pages are viewed on the internet or intranet.



I can read very well. And I am sure you can you read what the FSF official has written. The piece of text you quoted is in contrast with the GPL, which is the license under which I (and everyone else, for that matter) has downloaded the code, so it is void.

quote:

We have had this same discussion since this forum project was started.
The Powered By Logo/Text link requirement has always been there, and always will be. It is a VERY SMALL price to pay for free software that many, many people contributed many, many, many hours to code.



I don't know how the discussion was conducted the other times and if anyone really knowing the GPL and its implications was involved. From what you say I tend to think this was not the case.

quote:

So, you have a choice. You can use our forum, and abide by our licensing agreement, or you can go look for another forum to use.



There is a third option, that is the one I will follow: I will use your forum under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at my option) any later version. I am grateful for your contribution to the free software movement and I will express my appreciation in the way I will decide is best for my purposes (definitely _not_ by means of a pervasive Powered By Logo/Text link).
Best regards,

xyzzy


Edited by - xyzzy on 02 March 2005 07:02:10
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HuwR
Forum Admin

United Kingdom
20577 Posts

Posted - 02 March 2005 :  08:32:11  Show Profile  Visit HuwR's Homepage
I think you should write back to this "Dave Turner" and ask him why he thinks it's ok for PHPNuke to do it and not Snitz, sounds like FSF's own expert can't make his mind up.


quote:
Originally posted by xyzzy


Here is the letter I sent to licensing@gnu.org:

quote:

Subject: GPL'd software forbids modification of some code

Dear Sirs,

I have downloaded a copy of "Snitz Forums 2000" from http://forum.snitz.com/
(latest version at http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/sf2k/sf2k_v34_05.zip?download)
because I was looking for some GPL'd code for runinng web forums that my
student could study and modify at will. The package of "Snitz Forums 2000"
contains a copy of the GPL so that everything seems OK. However, the code
has 8 sections of code that look like the following:

'## START - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT
Response.Write "<meta name=""copyright"" content=""This Forum code is Copyright (C) 2000-05 Michael Anderson,
Pierre Gorissen, Huw Reddick and Richard Kinser, Non-Forum Related code is Copyright (C) " & strCopyright & """>"
& vbNewline
'## END - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT

Plus one section of code that looks like:

'## START - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT
Response.Write "<a href=""http://forum.snitz.com"" target=""_blank"" tabindex=""-1""><acronym title=""Powered By: "
& strVersion & """>"
if strShowImagePoweredBy = "1" then
Response.Write getCurrentIcon("logo_powered_by.gif||","Powered By: " & strVersion,"")
else
Response.Write "Snitz Forums 2000"
end if
Response.Write "</acronym></a></font></td>" & vbNewline
'## END - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT

The first 8 sections of code make sure that every produced web page contains the
string "<meta name="copyright" content="This Forum code is Copyright (C) 2000-02
Michael Anderson, Pierre Gorissen, Huw Reddick and Richard Kinser, Non-Forum
Related code is Copyright (C) XXX">, where `XXX' is provided by the configuration.

The last section makes sure every produced web page contains a link to the web site
http://forum.snitz.com.

Here is how each source module begins:

'#################################################################################
'## Snitz Forums 2000 v3.4.05
'#################################################################################
'## Copyright (C) 2000-05 Michael Anderson, Pierre Gorissen,
'## Huw Reddick and Richard Kinser
'##
'## This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
'## modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
'## as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2
'## of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
'##
'## All copyright notices regarding Snitz Forums 2000
'## must remain intact in the scripts and in the outputted HTML
'## The "powered by" text/logo with a link back to
'## http://forum.snitz.com in the footer of the pages MUST
'## remain visible when the pages are viewed on the internet or intranet.
'##
'## This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
'## but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
'## MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the
'## GNU General Public License for more details.
'##
'## You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
'## along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software
'## Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA.
'##
'## Support can be obtained from our support forums at:
'## http://forum.snitz.com
'##
'## Correspondence and Marketing Questions can be sent to:
'## manderson@snitz.com
'##
'#################################################################################

This is a very strange reading of the GPL, in my humble opinion. So I got
in touch with one of the copyright holders and his answers was constituted
by the following single sentence: "The GPL does not allow you to remove the
copyright notices, if you have a problem, then don't use the code, it is your
choice."

I am thus writing to you to understand whether this reading of the GPL is correct.
I guess what they claim is that the 8 sections of code above are copyright notices
and the GPL does not allow to touch them. My understanding is that the copyright
notices must exist in the sources (and they are there, in the form of comments
at the beginning of each source module), not (necessarily) in the output of the program.
The last section of the marked code, the one inserting a link to their web site
seems to have even less to do with the GPL.

It is also interesting to note that other people that have taken this
code, have also taken for granted that this reading of the GPL is correct,
and have added their own requirements. For instance, the guys at
http://www.superdeejay.net/, who have modified "Snitz Forums 2000",
explicitly forbid modification to the code they distribute in the
sections where they make sure every produces web pages points to
http://www.superdeejay.net in addition to pointing to
http://forum.snitz.com.

Many thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this.



And here is the reply I promptly got:

quote:

>[xyzzy@xyzzy.xyzzy - Tue Mar 01 16:53:38 2005]:


>> The package of "Snitz Forums
>> 2000"
>> contains a copy of the GPL so that everything seems OK. However, the
>> code
>> has 8 sections of code that look like the following:
>>
>> '## START - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL
>> VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT
>> Response.Write "<meta name=""copyright"" content=""This Forum code is
>> Copyright (C) 2000-05 Michael Anderson,
>> Pierre Gorissen, Huw Reddick and Richard Kinser, Non-Forum Related
>> code is Copyright (C) " & strCopyright & """>"
>> & vbNewline
>> '## END - REMOVAL, MODIFICATION OR CIRCUMVENTING THIS CODE WILL
>> VIOLATE THE SNITZ FORUMS 2000 LICENSE AGREEMENT


<snip>

>> This is a very strange reading of the GPL, in my humble opinion. So I
>> got in touch with one of the copyright holders and his answers was
>> constituted by the following single sentence: "The GPL does not allow
>> you to remove the copyright notices, if you have a problem, then don't
>> use the code, it is your choice."
>>
>> I am thus writing to you to understand whether this reading of the GPL
>> is correct. I guess what they claim is that the 8 sections of code
>> above are copyright notices and the GPL does not allow to touch them.
>> My understanding is that the copyright notices must exist in the
>> sources (and they are there, in the form of comments at the beginning
>> of each source module), not (necessarily) in the output of the
>> program. The last section of the marked code, the one inserting a link
>> to their web site seems to have even less to do with the GPL.


That's generally true. There is one case where copyright notices are
required in output -- that's section (2)(c) of the GPL. For web
applications, that's notices on the front page which have all of the
following:

(1) copyright
(2) no warranty
(3) this program is GPL
(4) where to find a copy of the GPL.

For web applications, HTML comments satisfy the requirement.

So, this guy's requirement goes beyond the GPL.

-- -Dave "Novalis" Turner GPL Compliance Engineer Free Software Foundation



My understanding is that, according to the GPL, I can modify the code at will as long as the information detailed in points (1)-(4) above is contained in HTML comments of the forum's front page. The "powered by and link back" stuff is simply not required, not even in the form of an HTML comment.
Cheers,

xyzzy


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Davio
Development Team Member

Jamaica
12217 Posts

Posted - 02 March 2005 :  08:47:56  Show Profile
So can't we just write our own license? We had already suggested at writing our own. Or is that not legal?

Support Snitz Forums
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RichardKinser
Snitz Forums Admin

USA
16655 Posts

Posted - 02 March 2005 :  09:21:18  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by xyzzy
There is a third option, that is the one I will follow: I will use your forum under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at my option) any later version. I am grateful for your contribution to the free software movement and I will express my appreciation in the way I will decide is best for my purposes (definitely _not_ by means of a pervasive Powered By Logo/Text link).
Best regards,

xyzzy

There is no other option. Either use the forum with the Powered By Logo/Text link in place, or you aren't going to use our forum. Simple as that.
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ruirib
Snitz Forums Admin

Portugal
26364 Posts

Posted - 02 March 2005 :  09:46:45  Show Profile  Send ruirib a Yahoo! Message
Why don't one of you guys confront this David Turner with his contradictory remarks over message board software? Doesn't he know what he is talking about?


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