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muzishun
Senior Member
United States
1079 Posts |
 Posted - 10 February 2005 : 19:01:59
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Well, I made the switch. I finally moved from IE (CrazyBrowser, actually, but it's the same thing) to FireFox. I wasn't seeing a whole lot of differences in the features and stuff until just recently. I'm learning CSS. Holy crap... I never knew how powerful this could be! As I've been reading about this, I've spent a lot of time learning about the W3C and the standards and whatnot that they deal with. *Now* is when I realize how much IE fudges, makes up, and just flat out misinterprets soooo much. I've also found a lot of information out there that implies that FireFox is more secure than IE (which I believe, but not due to any actual experience).
I'm now completely solidified in my switch, after designing just a fairly basic web page (not live yet, but just about done) for a group at school. It's completely CSS, my first, and I'm quite proud. When I tried to show my roommate, however, many of the exciting (and cool!) things about the site didn't even render. The basic layout is still the same, but a lot of effects are hidden. My roommate is completely apathetic to switching because "99.9% of people are using it, so it's the standard" (actually closer to 70%).
So here's my question for you guys. How do you convince people with this mindset to switch? "Just because everyone is doing it doesn't make it right." I'm sure many of your mothers told you that one. However, it's the mindset that so many out there have towards the internet. Internet Explorer is inefficient and impractical, and it flat out boffs advanced CSS effects.
I'm loving my new browser, my new language (gimme a break, CSS is new to me  ), and all the trimmings. But I don't want to have to dumb things down for the little-browser-that-couldn't.
Well, I think that was kind of a long rant. More of an editorial, really, but I've been wondering for awhile. I figured you guys and gals here would be able to relate to what I was talking about. I'd be interested to hear other peoples' opinions and horror-stories as well! |
Bill Parrott
Senior Web Programmer, University of Kansas
Co-Owner and Code Monkey, Eternal Second Designs (www.eternalsecond.com)
Personal Website (www.chimericdream.com) |
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Da_Stimulator
DEV Team Forum Moderator
USA
3373 Posts |
Posted - 10 February 2005 : 19:23:04
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Just realized on my site the stats are basically the same, almost 70% of visitors use IE. These stats are from the past week.
Rank Browser Visits %Visits
1 IE 1,195 68.4
2 Other 308 17.6
3 Netscape 236 13.5
4 Internet Proxy 7 0.4
5 Opera 2 0.1
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-Stim |
Edited by - Da_Stimulator on 10 February 2005 19:24:38 |
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ruirib
Snitz Forums Admin
Portugal
26364 Posts |
Posted - 10 February 2005 : 19:40:45
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Why change? I like IE. My views as a developer do not interfere with my views as a user. I would agree that IE has been without any meaningful changes for quite a while, but it does what I need without much fuss.
Standards are great, but unfortunately many of them simply seem to be left to be applied by somebody else. In the Internet, that seems more to be the case than the opposite. I think no browser is fully compliant with W3C standards... |
Snitz 3.4 Readme | Like the support? Support Snitz too |
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sr_erick
Senior Member
USA
1318 Posts |
Posted - 10 February 2005 : 21:45:00
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| Actually, I find a lot more problems with FireFox being compliant (With CSS) than IE. Things which are supposed to work a certain way work absolutly fine for me in IE yet they don't render properly in firefox. I love IE. However, I wish it wasn't so closesly wrapped into the OS for security purposes. However, IE works best for me. It opens faster, is easier to use since i'm used to it, and renders/supports absolutly anything out there with no problems whatsoever. |
Erick
Snowmobile Fanatics
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muzishun
Senior Member
United States
1079 Posts |
Posted - 11 February 2005 : 00:46:58
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| See, I've found the opposite. For example, the site I mentioned above that I just finished uses all CSS. Internet Explorer doesn't even render about 25% of the code that I use, namely the hover code and some of the positioning stuff. I'll agree that it's highly doubtful that all browsers will ever be 100% compliant, but it's kind of absurd when IE redefines things such as width, height and fixed position. I mean, that's kind of absurd. |
Bill Parrott
Senior Web Programmer, University of Kansas
Co-Owner and Code Monkey, Eternal Second Designs (www.eternalsecond.com)
Personal Website (www.chimericdream.com) |
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sr_erick
Senior Member
USA
1318 Posts |
Posted - 11 February 2005 : 01:20:35
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| They can, they are microsoft, they have over 90% of the desktop marketshare, they set the standard. What does your code look like? |
Erick
Snowmobile Fanatics
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HuwR
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
20584 Posts |
Posted - 11 February 2005 : 04:22:41
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muzishun,
The idea is too make your site work for both, not just one or the other, and Firefox isn't anymore secure than IE, however IE allows you to do more in the way of scripting and interaction with the users machine, it is this (ActiveX and OLE) that are the insecure parts not the browser itself. IE's problem with CSS is simply that it is out of date, and Firefox also has it's own set of CSS bugs and quirks too so neither are perfect.
quote:
So here's my question for you guys. How do you convince people with this mindset to switch? "Just because everyone is doing it doesn't make it right." I'm sure many of your mothers told you that one. However, it's the mindset that so many out there have towards the internet. Internet Explorer is inefficient and impractical, and it flat out boffs advanced CSS effects.
There are also many things you can do with IE that you simply can't do with any other browser, CSS is not the be all and end all of the internet, it is just one facet. |
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MarcelG
Retired Support Moderator
Netherlands
2625 Posts |
Posted - 11 February 2005 : 05:42:12
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Bill ; I don't think convincing ever works...people have to decide for themselves what they want.
So, you can better direct your energy in giving the good example
As soon as the apathetic realize they're withholding themselves from the better alternative, they'll switch.
And, to be honest, I haven't switched to FF. I've used it, I've got it installed, but I still use MyIE2...cause it's more practical to me  |
portfolio - linkshrinker - oxle - twitter |
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Doug G
Support Moderator
USA
6493 Posts |
Posted - 11 February 2005 : 20:42:15
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I was going to post a reply and then realized I just don't care ...
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Doug G
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Computer history and help at www.dougscode.com |
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muzishun
Senior Member
United States
1079 Posts |
Posted - 12 February 2005 : 04:27:18
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| So instead you posted a reply about not replying and not caring? |
Bill Parrott
Senior Web Programmer, University of Kansas
Co-Owner and Code Monkey, Eternal Second Designs (www.eternalsecond.com)
Personal Website (www.chimericdream.com) |
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Gargoyle
Junior Member
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 12 February 2005 : 17:03:32
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| I tried Firefox for 1 month... I found the tabbed browsing and active bookmarks to be very useful... Other than that it seemed to suck in comparison to IE. But that's just my 2 cents. [D] |
Here is a link to my Snitz powered Drag Racing site. |
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Doug G
Support Moderator
USA
6493 Posts |
Posted - 13 February 2005 : 00:48:51
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quote:
Originally posted by muzishun
So instead you posted a reply about not replying and not caring?
Are you sarcasm-challenged or something? Or are you just on a Firefox religous crazed high of nervous energy and just have to try to convince the unbelievers?
Why do you care what anyone else uses, and why do you use words that people using something other than what you use are somehow deficient? IMHO it's likely it's the other way around. People that use Firefox are fine, people that preach Firefox are tiresome.
Here I am, breaking my own rule about "constructive apathy". Constructive apathy is where you look at the millions of things you don't care about (like who uses Firefox) and pick the things to not care about that are amusing and make you laugh.
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Doug G
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Computer history and help at www.dougscode.com |
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Da_Stimulator
DEV Team Forum Moderator
USA
3373 Posts |
Posted - 13 February 2005 : 01:06:17
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heh heh... Doug you make a good point in a funny way
I frequently switch between Firefox and IE, I like the tabbed browsing in firefox, but there are some websites I frequent that just dont work unless I'm using IE. |
-Stim |
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Doug G
Support Moderator
USA
6493 Posts |
Posted - 13 February 2005 : 20:36:43
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Yeah, I posted this from Firefox myself :)
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Doug G
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Computer history and help at www.dougscode.com |
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muzishun
Senior Member
United States
1079 Posts |
Posted - 14 February 2005 : 02:48:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug G
quote:
Originally posted by muzishun
So instead you posted a reply about not replying and not caring?
Are you sarcasm-challenged or something? Or are you just on a Firefox religous crazed high of nervous energy and just have to try to convince the unbelievers?
Well, I was aiming for sarcasm myself. I'm actually just surprised that a larger number of people here don't use FireFox. As I said, I agree that it's probably impossible for any browser to be 100% compliant, but after reading articles pointing out the differences between IE's compliance vs FF (and others), I was just a little shocked to see developers that I respect and look up to using a program that doesn't let a site expand to full potential.
And HuwR, I agree that you should make your site accessible to all browsers (or as much as you can), and I do. But I think it's simpler to start with something that's a little more standard and work back from there than it is to try and climb upward from a more difficult point.
I wasn't intending to sound like I'm on a "religious craze", so if that's how it came across, I'm sorry you misinterpreted. |
Bill Parrott
Senior Web Programmer, University of Kansas
Co-Owner and Code Monkey, Eternal Second Designs (www.eternalsecond.com)
Personal Website (www.chimericdream.com) |
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HuwR
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
20584 Posts |
Posted - 14 February 2005 : 04:19:38
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quote:
And HuwR, I agree that you should make your site accessible to all browsers (or as much as you can), and I do. But I think it's simpler to start with something that's a little more standard and work back from there than it is to try and climb upward from a more difficult point.
I would disagree, since IE supports a smaller set of the w3 standards, it would make more sense to code for that as it is the lowest denominator |
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