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Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
 Posted - 16 October 2002 : 11:41:20
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Oh, that old friend. I didn't look at it for a year  .
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 Stop the WAR! |
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work mule
Senior Member
USA
1358 Posts |
Posted - 16 October 2002 : 12:40:48
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quote:
Originally posted by HuwR
You could massively reduce the session overhead by storing it differently, there is no need to store all the html, since that would be easy to construct, all that needs storing is
forum.asp?FORUM_ID=96,DEV Bug Reports (Closed)
or even just
F=96,DEV Bug Reports (Closed)
and the F or C replaced with their respective type and ID
That's a very good alternative. 
Later this week I can work on coding a couple of alternatives and post them for testing/review.
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ruirib
Snitz Forums Admin
Portugal
26364 Posts |
Posted - 16 October 2002 : 12:43:46
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Well I haven't been around as much as I used too lately, and I've put my available time mainly through the things which I accepted to do here, which is help on the help forums, so I guess I didn't read this until today. Here goes my view on this.
Starting with the main issue: resource consumption with session vars. My personal view is that the concern raised by workmule is a very reasonable one. I think Snitz should be addressed to an as large user base as possible and that should certainly include users with high traffic sites and, possibly with a high number of forums. So, for those situations, looks like the current way the Jump To info is stored is not as good as it could be. I would also think the suggestion made by Huw is a very good way of achieving a better balance bewteen the advantages brought by the use of a session variable to store this info (it saves a BIG number of DB calls when compared with previous versions) and the memory used to do that.
Now, to the second issue. I regret the statement made by Richard that he won't participate in similar discussions in the future. Although I can accept that probably the first remark he made about this could be seen as not the best possible one, I believe Richard's contribution to Snitz, development wise is very, very valuable and I would think that dev discussions will lose if he chooses to stay away from them. I hope that was written in heat of the moment and that Richard won't actually stay away from this type of discussion.
Finally I would like to address e3stone'e 'rant' about Richard's answer. e3stone, I really don't know what is it that you expect to get with that type of comment. I remember a previous discussion with Doug, where you used the same exact tone and attitude and I remember getting p*** with it, even if I had nothing to do with it directly.
Frankly I think the comments you made in these two situations are a bit rude, you know. In fact, "Take a lesson from from Gaurav", is a lot more patronizing and condescending than most things I've seen written anywhere else on these forums. So maybe you should reflect a bit on the things you write yourself before accusing others of doing precisely what you do (no, it does not matter much if you do it when ranting about someone else's behavior). I tell you frankly that kind of attitude makes me furious. And it's not the fact that it was directed towards a Snitz admin or a snitz moderator, it's just because the attitude itself is regreatable, IMHO.
In fact, since you're so much keen on the example's given by others, take a lesson from the way workmule himself answered this. He didn't make it personal, as you have done now and in the previous situation with Doug.
I apologize for such a lengthy post and maybe even such an unworthy subject, but I felt I needed to write this. |
Snitz 3.4 Readme | Like the support? Support Snitz too |
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HuwR
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
20595 Posts |
Posted - 16 October 2002 : 13:11:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Nikkol
and if it's F use forum.asp, if it's C use default.asp
Yes, sorry, should have explained. |
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e3stone
Average Member
USA
885 Posts |
Posted - 16 October 2002 : 14:51:01
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quote:
Originally posted by ruirib
Finally I would like to address e3stone'e 'rant' about Richard's answer. e3stone, I really don't know what is it that you expect to get with that type of comment. I remember a previous discussion with Doug, where you used the same exact tone and attitude and I remember getting p*** with it, even if I had nothing to do with it directly.
Frankly I think the comments you made in these two situations are a bit rude, you know. In fact, "Take a lesson from from Gaurav", is a lot more patronizing and condescending than most things I've seen written anywhere else on these forums. So maybe you should reflect a bit on the things you write yourself before accusing others of doing precisely what you do (no, it does not matter much if you do it when ranting about someone else's behavior). I tell you frankly that kind of attitude makes me furious. And it's not the fact that it was directed towards a Snitz admin or a snitz moderator, it's just because the attitude itself is regreatable, IMHO.
In fact, since you're so much keen on the example's given by others, take a lesson from the way workmule himself answered this. He didn't make it personal, as you have done now and in the previous situation with Doug.
Yes, I took the response of Richard's personally, to an extent. Perhaps it is my right, perhaps not. I would probably respond the same way if I were to do it all over again. I know others have the same opinion that I do, but don't necessarily feel the need to post about it. Some people have already admitted the attitude shown in this topic is directly related to the number of posts you have.
This previous topic with Doug you're refering to is here: http://forum.snitz.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35601
And no, Doug, I didn't have you in my 'other' group. I mistakingly left your name off the list of people in my previous post.
quote:
What does "GPL code" have to do with my response? Just because this is "GPL Code" doesn't mean I should word my responses any differently.
You go and work on something for almost a year, then release it only to have people post about how this should have been done this way, or this should not have been done that way, etc. See how you feel about it.
It's known that you don't necessarily agree with the GPL, Richard. If I helped develop code under a GPL agreement and released it, I'd expect posts questioning how something was done, or why it was done a certain way. This is the only way to improve the code. Just because someone is questioning something in the code doesn't mean they don't appreciate the time you spent on it, or that they're questioning your programming skills.
I'm sort of hurt that someone would wonder if they'd want to keep me or keep Richard around. Obviously Richard has more posts than me and has contributed more around here than me. Does this, like Huw implied in his post, justify someone's attitude towards others? Even if I had 50,000 posts, I would never respond with something like that. Does this mean that when I reach a certain post level that I'm authorized to looked down upon other's "dumb" opinions?
I'm sorry that I have to be the "bad apple" and bring this topic up. Even if the method by which I'm addressing it is totally wrong or inappropriate, it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed.
Raise your hand if you know what Fred Smith's Economics term paper topic was. |
<-- Eric --> |
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davemaxwell
Access 2000 Support Moderator
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 16 October 2002 : 15:45:17
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** raises hand **. I had to go and verify what the topic was, but I did indeed know the topic of the term paper. Just goes to show what Profs know. You know the old adage: "Those who can't..." 
e3stone, why did you feel it necessary to jump all over Richard publicly like you have (admittedly I'm doing the same thing, but you started the process -- including the replies to DougG in your other post -- so I'm continuing in the same vein)? His initial comment to Work Mule was not nasty (or at least it didn't seem that way to me). A simple case of a disagreement in the approach. He simply stated that it was not a "very bad, bad thing" like Work Mule had intimated it to be. WM even admitted he has 400 forums on his site, which is even more than we have here. You have to consider his case to be a little unique with that many forums, and Richard said that the approach was working for this site (and even you have to admit this is a pretty active forum), so he didn't see how this approach could really be considered all that bad.
In defense of Richard, he worked his tail off on the 3.4 rewrite trying to address the #1 biggest complaint about Snitz: the speed. The effort he put into it (and he and Huw did just about ALL of it by themselves, with a fair bit of testing by the development team) basically meant he did a complete rewrite of the whole forums. There was not a single page that he didn't touch and try to apply some standardization to the process, simplifying SQL calls, adding basic CSS properties for FUTURE enhancements. All the while was providing excellent 3.3.xx support not only for the default product, but for all his mods, and some that he didn't create/edit.
And what did he get for his work? Admittedly he did get some thanks, but other than that, he got a lot of "why didn't you do this? why did you do this instead of that? I liked the way that 'xyz' acted in the older version...". And a lot of attacks on the approaches he took in the rewrites, most of which he developed based on conversations held HERE (some of those attacking him were involved in the discussions that formed the standards).
Could Richard have worded his reply a little more gently? Perhaps. I can't count the number of times I've gone back and edited a post to make it gentler after submission because it's harsh. But the "very bad, bad thing" type of posts (which WM said he wished he would have added some smilies to lighten the tone) are enough to get your gander up after you see a couple thousand of them.
I can see why WM made the initial post. The wording of his post could have been improved a little perhaps, but it had good intentions. But maybe if he had just made the changes on his site and could have shown a benefit for his approach, perhaps this whole situation could have been resolved from the start. Me personally, I'd like to see the results of WM approach and see if it makes that big of an impact, either in speed or system resources. If it does, then perhaps it can be included in a later version of the forum. Let's just encourage him on his efforts, and keep any personal attacks, or otherwise smart comments to ourselves. If you've got a real problem with someone, take it offline and start an email correspondence with them. There's no benefit to airing the proverbial "dirty laundry". |
Dave Maxwell
Barbershop Harmony Freak |
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Davio
Development Team Member
Jamaica
12217 Posts |
Posted - 16 October 2002 : 21:38:40
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| I agree with Dave. Would love to see if the alternative methods would be more beneficial. I have known for a long time that Snitz Forums with a large user base, a huge amount of posts and a very active forum didn't hold too well on servers in the past, when it came to resources and memory usage. I believe it has reduced with the 3.4 version, but if it can be improved any more, I am willing to go with it. |
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Doug G
Support Moderator
USA
6493 Posts |
Posted - 16 October 2002 : 23:43:50
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And let's not forget the validity of Richard's answer either. First, the demonization of using session variables is overdone, with IIS5+ session variable use is stable and works well. Earlier versions of IIS did have session problems. Go back to IIS3 w/asp and session use was an adventure
But the other answer was "if you want to change it in your forum, go ahead" (or whatever the exact wording was) is a great answer! How true, and one of the real advantages of using Snitz is that you can, and are encouraged, to rework the code to suit your own needs! It's not a matter of trying to stifle discussion, it was an answer that illuminated one of the strengths of the Snitz code.
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Doug G
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Computer history and help at www.dougscode.com |
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e3stone
Average Member
USA
885 Posts |
Posted - 17 October 2002 : 06:18:11
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I want to formally appologize to all who read/will read this topic. I tend to let my emotions take the best of me at times. Perhaps there was some validity in my statements, but the means by which I presented them was inappropriate. I've sat back and read over this topic about 10-15 times. Each time, I try and take a different view point. I can see why people would be irritated at me by the way I presented myself; however, I still believe the idea behind my statements is valid.
I appreciate all the time and effort that the developers and moderators give to this project; however, I do believe at times they take certain issues too personally, in regards to the coding. Everyone contributes to this project. Perhaps they don't physically code it, but they present ideas and information used in the development. People in leadership roles have to have thick skin at times. Just because someone asks why it was done a certain way or couldn't it have been done this way or that, doesn't mean they don't remember all the time and effort the developers spent. If no one cared about Snitz, there would never be any "why is it like this" or "could it be like that" posts. They'd just go off and find a project that does do "this" or "that." I chuckle every once in a while when I look at the 3.1sr4 code. "Why the heck was it done that way!?" Well, some of the improvements might have been made because someone asked "why was it done that way" or "there's a better way...." I just don't want someone (developer, moderator, general member) to close the door, so to speak, on someone who's asking about a Snitz coding question and asking if that is the best possible way. If these questions weren't being asked, then we'd all be sitting around with our 3.1sr4 forums passing the titles in the querystrings.
I just hope the people (including myself) watch the "tone" of their posts. Not one person here has all the answers, that's why it's a discussion forum.
Again, I appologize for my "rant," but hope that some people (include myself) improve their attitude and stop taking certain things too personally. |
<-- Eric --> |
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HuwR
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
20595 Posts |
Posted - 17 October 2002 : 06:34:59
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quote:
Originally posted by work mule
quote:
Originally posted by HuwR
You could massively reduce the session overhead by storing it differently, there is no need to store all the html, since that would be easy to construct, all that needs storing is
forum.asp?FORUM_ID=96,DEV Bug Reports (Closed)
or even just
F=96,DEV Bug Reports (Closed)
and the F or C replaced with their respective type and ID
That's a very good alternative.
Later this week I can work on coding a couple of alternatives and post them for testing/review.
That would be great. |
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davemaxwell
Access 2000 Support Moderator
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 17 October 2002 : 07:52:57
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e3stone,
It takes a big person to be able to apologize for their tone. Your most recent post makes a very good point, and hopefully we can all get back to making Snitz the best it can be. |
Dave Maxwell
Barbershop Harmony Freak |
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ruirib
Snitz Forums Admin
Portugal
26364 Posts |
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Deleted
deleted
4116 Posts |
Posted - 17 October 2002 : 10:27:20
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Yes ! Lets find a solution to be incorporated in v4b at least..
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Stop the WAR! |
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pweighill
Junior Member
United Kingdom
453 Posts |
Posted - 18 October 2002 : 15:35:16
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I know some people don't like using application variables either, but how about considering the following:
Use a session variable to store the jumpbox info for logged in members,
and
Use an application variable to store the jumpbox info for everyone else. |
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Topic Locked
